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Israel is damned if it does, damned if it doesn’t. Pull out of the West Bank and do nothing… out come the suicide bombers en masse. Go in and fight all out Jenin-style, out come the suicide bombers en masse. Talk peace and prepare to concede even more land, out come the suicide bombers en masse.

The problem is that the Palestinians have been fed a diet of hatred and death and death and hatred. Hatred. Death. Death. Hatred. From day one, that’s all they’ve been taught by the filth that run the PLO, Hamas, and all the other groups who should be rotting in hell as I write this.

And the European leaders, who must be living on a different planet, criticize Israel for tactics that seem “harsh” and “brutal”.

If I could, I’d shove this and this down every one of their throats.

But I shouldn’t hate, now should I? Because hate begets hate. Violence begets violence. After all, the poor, oppressed Palestinians only want to finish what Hitler couldn’t complete. If only those evil Zionists would jump into the sea, all of this could end right now.

Exactly, Gokul - unless something drastic happens that changes the basic mindset of the death-cultists AKA Palestinians, there is no hope for peace.

“death-cultists AKA Palestinians”…wow…I think you’re pushing it just a little.
These are the same death-cultists, who now live in less than 20% of what was their country 50 years ago? Think about this…suppose tomorrow France invades the US, and all americans have to live in North Dakota for ever. You spend 40 years of your life earning and saving, to buy your dream house, but you never get to live in it, and some french settlers do. and in North Dakota, you live in refugee camps instead. AND, to top it all, the French decide that the rest of the country is not enough land for them, and start settling in N.D as well, making your refugee camps more and more crowded.
This is what Palestinians have lived with for 50 years. If they harbor a little resentment towards Israelis, I don’t blame them.
I totally agree that the methods they use to retaliate aren’t good. They do kill lot of innocents too.
But at the same time, when Israelis kill Palestinians, they never need to resort to means like suicide bombings. They have an army, they can attack and kill whoever they want, and label them terrorists. The palestinian civilans can’t retaliate to the army, so they choose civilians like themselves.
The difference between a freedom-fighter and a terrorist is who’s telling the story. Both of you sound like you have Indian names…some of the most famous indians in freedom struggle were labelled “terrorists” by the British Empire - Sardar Patel was a prime example.

Send me an e-mail if you want to continue this discussion.
-Prashant

Prashant, I have discussed enough of this issue with enough people that I am really not interested in taking it off-line. Don’t insult Indian freedom fighters by comparing them with the Palestinians. We did Satyagraha - we never intentionally targetted women and children in the fight. Remember Ahimsa? That was what had won us our freedom.

This is more comparable to the Kashmiri “freedom” struggle - we call them terrorists - Pakistan calls them “freedom fighters” - India has an army, poor Kashmiris have only guerrilla tactics against the Indian army crushing them with their humongous tanks - what do you think now?

Major Oil Field Discovered in Israel

Haifa, May 20, 2003 - A humongous oil field - representing 90 percent of known worldwide reserves of oil and double those of all Arab countries combined - has been discovered in Israel, announced Israeli Oil Minister Rabbi Jed Clampett.

Dominique de Villepin, in a race to get to Telaviv before the Russians, managed to grab the remaining seats on a Nouvelles Frontieres charter flight. He was accompanied by a delegation from TotalFinaElf who outbid their rivals for the Nouvelles Frontieres seats after paying what an anonymous source described as an “undisclosed entry fee” to French government officials. De Villepin said that the prospects for mutually profitable relations with the Israelis looked promising.

In a related development, the governments of France, Russia and Germany issued a joint communique denouncing the recent spate of suicide bombings against Israeli civilians as “warcrimes and crimes against humanity” and called for the immediate withdrawal of “the unlawful Arab presence in the Israeli territories of Gaza and the West Bank”. In an exclusive to the Jeruselem Post, President Chirac stated, “In the interests of world peace, the misplaced Arabs (referred to as recently as last week as “Palestinians”) should retreat back into their legitimate territories of Jordan, Syria and Egypt and leave our Israeli friends alone. Their unconscionable terrorist methods should be condemned by all civilized countries.” He also offered a case of Chateau Petrus Grand Cru Classe to Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon for his birthday, which was three months ago.

In a show of one-upmanship, Vladimir Putin has offered TWO cases of special reserve Stalychnaya while calling for the exile of “that terrorist imposter Yasser Arafat”. “We can also offer far better terms on those oil drilling contracts”, added Mr. Putin.

Columbia University has offered to grant asylum to Mr. Arafat in its Department of Middle East Studies.

Listen, genius, the difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist is that the latter deliberately murders civilians.

Have you also been brainwashed into thinking that all Palestinians are victims of Israeli aggression?

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt… maybe you’re uninformed. Read those links I posted… there are plenty of other sources on the web.

If you still believe the Palestinian nonsense, then you are an absolute moron.

G, maybe that’s the way to go - Israel should fake finding an oil field and all of a sudden the whole world is your friend.

Gokul, you need to get a blog - great points :) Same goes to you too, G.

Actually, Satyagraha was Mahatma Gandhi and his school of though. Sardar Patel was a different man. He was the leader of the Indian National Army (called guerillas and terrorists by others). Ahimsa did win us our freedom in the end, but violent means were tried. When you get to a stage where you’re so desparate to make your voice heard, you resort to violence.

And its quite comparable to the Kashmiri struggle. Some of the things our government is doing over there are quite despicable, just as are some of the things the Israeli govt. is doing in Palestine.

Gokul, just because I don’t believe everything worldnetdaily tells me (a site known to be as Pro-Israeli and as Anti-Palestinian as it gets), this makes me a “genius?”. That’s like saying believe everything the Iraqi Foreign Minister says. Ok, maybe not that bad, but close.
If A and B have a fight tomorrow, and I ask A what happened, don’t listen to B at all, I can’t start going around telling everyone that A is the right one, and B should die. now THAT, would be the mark of a “genius”, wouldn’t you think?
If any of us is uninformed, its you, my friend. Do some reasearch. Have you heard about a man called Ariel Sharon? Have you by chance heard that this man was convicted of was crimes against humanity?

Once again, I’m not supporting the means the Palestinians are using to get their voice heard, but all I’m saying is that it is hard to get your voice heard over the sound of an israeli rifle being fired at you.
Nowhere did I say all Palestinians are victims of Israeli aggression. But some are.

Oh Prashant, since you seem to know so much about Ariel Sharon, maybe you will remember that Ariel Sharon’s big crime was not the actual slaughter of the Palestinians - that was committed by the Lebanese - Sharon was convicted of helping the Lebanese by not doing much against it….

Right, it is so hard to be heard over the din of the Israeli rifles - especially when you are surrounded by a lynch mob trying to tear two Israeli reserves who made the mistake of taking a wrong turn, apart limb to limb.

Shanti,

I am sure Prashant is equally horrified by the Syrian occupation of Lebanon, which has resulted in a far greater number of deaths than the massacres at Sabra-Shantila (acted out by Lebanese militias, the leaders of whom no one thinks to try for war crimes. Funny, that).

And the Hindu zealot who murdered Gandhi was a terrorist. I hope the wheel keeps turning and turning for that one….

Of course, Madhu :nice:

Yes, Prashan, I have heard of a democratically elected leader named Ariel Sharon. Now have you heard of a psychopathic dictator called Yasir Arafat, the piece of filth with whose blessing nearly every suicide bombing has taken place?

Have you heard of another democratically elected leader named Ehud Barak, who tried to make peace with above dictator but was instead given the middle finger?

How can you side with people who brainwash their children by glorifying death and murder? These are the same gutter trash who dance on the streets after suicide bombings and other terrorist attacks. I don’t remember seeing on video any Israelis dancing at the news of a Palestinian civilian being killed by the Israeli army. Do you?

Don’t you think the Jews have suffered enough through history?

Do you know why the Palestinians are refugees? Contrary to what you think, they were not evicted en masse. The majority of them left at the calling of the invading Arab armies who promised their right to return after a swift victory over Israel.

Do you know that at the time of Israel’s creation, over 870,000 Jews were forcibly driven off of Arab lands? Yes, the Jewish Irgun and Haganah evicted many Palestinians also, but nowhere near the number of Jews who were evicted from Arab lands or the number of Palestinians who left at the Arabs’ calling.

Do you also know that right now almost a million Muslim Arabs live in Israel and enjoy the same citizenship benefits as their Jewish countrymen?

Fifty-five years and too many wars later, the Palestinians remain in the squalor and self-inflicted misery of their refugee camps.

All because they won’t accept Israel’s existence. Or, more accurately, all because they hate Jews.

I have a valid arguement for everything you have said above. But if you’re going to use a site called “factsofisrael.com” to back up your points, I don’t think I need to respond at all.

Are you gullible enough to believe everything you read on that one site? did you even look at the other side’s propaganda, and their perspective. Until you do that, its impossible to have an intelligent debate over this topic.

and just BTW, Arafat is NOT a dictator. He was “APPOINTED” BY THE US to “represent” the Palestinians.

See how it is Gokul and Madhu - now Arafat is the US’ fault too :huh:

I don’t get it. If the US ‘appointed’ Arafat to ‘represent’ the Palestinians, doesn’t that still make him an American appointed dictator? Wow, I had no idea even Arafat was part of the evil neocon plot to take over the entire world. Did the guys at the American Enterprise Institute think that one up? Cause if they did…dudes, seriously bad move.:tongue3:

Sshhh, anonymous - don’t give away all our secret names :evil:

Really Prashan? You have a valid argument for everything I have said? Go ahead. I’m eager to read them.

Factsofisrael.com comes with the following disclaimer:


This section will cover the demographics of Israel, and the West Bank and Gaza (where a large number of Palestinians live). Please note that the numbers cannot be 100% accurate, but I have verified them with multiple sources. I list the sources when they are available, but please let me know if you feel some of these stats are wrong: please make sure you back up your claims with links or books.

The author has mentioned sources wherever possible.

When you mention your sources, ensure that they come with a similar, if not better disclaimer.

Why do you feel you need to “defend” the US at every point. I wasn’t saying anything anti-US at any time.
And once again, Arafat is NOT a dictator. He is just a figure-head. He really has no power. Some factions of the PLO and Hamas have power, since people listen to them.
The reason people listen to them is that they’re the only ones looking after the people. Hospitals, schools, mosques are all funded by these guys.

Tomorrow, I will make a site called “factsofIndia.com” and will blame everything that’s ever happened in India on Pakistan and all muslims of the world. Then I will put a very similar disclaimer on them. Then I will make up some sources, and some places, I will find some random quotes taken out of context from people, and some random ultra-hindu publications, and use those as my sources.
You MUST believe everything that’s written over there. I will write stuff like
1. Pakistan had Gandhi killed
2. Pakistani muslims are the cause of all over-population of India. They sneak into our country, have 10 kids, and go back.

I guarantee I can find sources that I can list for these “Facts” that I’ve just made up.

do you agree with everything factsofIndia.com will say? By the same logic, you must.

First, I didn’t post the anon piece about the US appointing Arafat to represent the Palestinians.

Second, you said that you have a valid argument for everything I had said. I wasn’t referring to Indo-Pak. I wasn’t referring to Mahatma Gandhi’s assassination. I was referring to the Israeli-Arab conflict.

Do you still plan a rebuttal or will you concede that your argument is pointless?

Prashant, why are the Palestinian Arabs still living in refugee camps?

:huh:Actually, Satyagraha was Mahatma Gandhi and his school of though. Sardar Patel was a different man. He was the leader of the Indian National Army (called guerillas and terrorists by others). - Prashant:huh:

Prashant, dude, you seriously need a crash course in history. Your name sounds Indian, so I would suggest you start reading the history of India first. Lemme begin by telling you something every kid in India knows.

Lesson 1 - The Indian National Army was led by Netaji Subhaschandra Bose. Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel had nothing to do with violent techniques. he himself was a satyagrahi. Read more about the Bardoli Satyagraha to elarn about Patel’s non violent means. I really doubt if the Brits ever called Congressmen like Patel a terrorist. Even Bose was a non violent Congressman who later started the INA. The INA worked like an army, NOT like terrorists. They were armed by the Japanese and they concentrated on attacking the British army, not civilians.

So even Netaji Bose can not be called a terrorist.

If you want more info about the “revolutionaries” of the Indian struggle….who by the way never targetted women and children like the Hamas does……use google. Or go to a library.

But please don’t dazzle us with your ignorance about the basics of history.

Err Madhu, are you saying Godse was NOT a terrorist? Just because he did not kill any women and children other than Gandhi?

To answer your question Gaurav, I think purposely targetting civilians is terrorism. So, was Gandhi’s murder terrorism or guerilla warfare? I think it was terrorism, personally.

What do you think? What is the difference between terrorism and guerilla warfare? Because I can’t see any justification for the first, but I guess I can for the second - we did it here during our revolutionary war, in that we harassed British troops and did not wear uniforms. I don’t know as much about Indian history as you obviously do. Opinions?:huh:

Oh, and I posted the anonymous comment - forgot to add my name. Sorry.

Why are the Pals still in refugee camps?

Why are the the ONLY refugee group to have their own UN agency??

Diana, don’t you know it is more fun to hit and run than to do some actual thinking? ;)

Madhu, you troll! :tongue3:

Shanti, Yes, it is especially fun to hit and run when you are wearing a veil, and no one can identify you afterwards. If you know what i mean.

:angry:

Hey, where’d Prashant go? To the library? ;)

Madhu, you raise an interesting question. I agree with your definition, but I must add that we have to concede that some ‘revolutionaries’ in India must have been terrorists too. Not everyone was a Bhagat Singh.

That said, note that Americans count attacks on their soldiers as terrorism. USS Cole, or the suicide bombings in Iraq are considered terrorism, even though the targets are military. Even in India, if uniformed men are attacked in kashmir, we still call it terrorism.

You know, once you come down to it, justifying one form of violence opens the Pandora’s box for others to come rushing in. Confusing isn’t it?

Frankly, leaving all definitions aside, the most practical one is, my guy is a revolutionary, your guy is a terrorist. May not cut ice in an academic discussion but that’s how the real world works.

Gandhi had different ideas, but currently we all seemed to be obsessed with punching holes in the man’s ideas. I find myself questioning the practicality of his teachings most of the times….yet there are times when only he seems to be making sense.

We are all “veiled4Allah” here, Diana ;)

Gaurav, even though we don’t exactly see eye-to-eye on most things, I welcome your presence here, since you make good points and create a good debate. Looks like Prashant is not one of those - he doesn’t like to have his ideas challenged, poor thing.

I don’t know anything about any one of you. I have lived in Lebanon for 3 years and it’s next to Israel. I have been to many refugee camps. When you go there, you feel what the Palestinians are doing is right. IF someone comes into your house and kills your whole family, the only thing u will want to do is to kill the guy and his family. You will do it even though u know the guy’s family is innocent. It’s one of those things, palestinians can’t be blamed. British called Bhagat Singh, a terrorist. For us, he is not since we are Indians. Palestininas are freedom fighters also. They just want their land back.