depends on the religion.

you can not be a traditional/orthodox religious jew unless you follow the 612 commandments. on the other hand, you can be a reform jew. you can be a secular jew and do whatever, because jewishness is also ethnic.

in contrast, christianity has always emphasized the spirit above the law, so you have much more wiggle room (or at least, the definitions are more up in the air). there are christians who reject the trinity (mormons & jehovah witnesses), there are christians that accept birth control (non-roman catholics or in communion with that church), christians who are pacifists, christians who are soldiers, etc. etc.

islam is more rule-based than christianity, but less so than judaism. the hanafi sect, dominant in india and the turkish speaking world, says you can be a good muslim if your heart is good and you do the accept the profession of faith (there is no god but god and muhammed is his prophet). the hanbalis (dominant in saudi arabia) assert that you must pray five times a day and all that jazz….

hinduism also has flavors. hare krishnas accept converts. traditional hinduism does not-sort of, since historically hindus have accepted non-hindus into their fold, the burmese ahmon kings for instance, but mostly they don’t do it on an individual, but rather ethnic basis.

so basically, the simple answer is that it’s going to be different for each religion, and each sect in a religion. everyone can find their place if they want to, but i think some people are being obnoxious when they say they want to be a conservative traditional roman catholic and an active homosexual, like andrew sullivan, he should join a liberal episocapal church if he wants the “smells and bells” of catholicism without the traditional morality…..

Ah, the joys of being an atheist… these thoughts never bug you at all. :tongue3:

Yazad, Kingsley, and Ravi to post in 3…2…1…

religion, in addition to a spiritual bond, holds a deep bearing to a person’s lifestyle and culture. for instance, i’m hindu - in the cultural sense, not the religious sense. i can identify with hinduism on a cultural, historical sense, but not so much on a spiritual one.

does that make me less of a hindu than the yogi that meditates for umpteen hours a day? depends on your view of your religion i suppose.

i’m at a loss for how to answer this. this is my first stab at it, i’ll be back for more i’m sure :lol:

Echoing MadMan. These questions generally elicit a DK/DC reply from me. That’s Don’t Know / Don’t Care.

Observing non-brights ;) , I’ve realized that everyone pretty much acts the way they feel like. They are not overly concerned with what their religion says. They just interpret it to mean what they want it to mean. And then they go pick fights with others who don’t interpret it the same way. Most religions are fairly interchangeable though. They all expect you to believe in something, and give you a bunch of rules that you can twist to your liking. If they don’t let you twist em, they don’t survive for too long in large numbers. So there you have it - the evolution among religions is driven by the survival of the most flexible. Ergo, we will ultimately arrive at very flexible versions of each religion with large followings, at which point everyone will just give up and turn atheist.

I think no one seems to be answering the larger question(guess none of us really have the answer) - is belonging to a religion akin to belonging to, say, a club with it’s own rules and codes of conduct?

So if you refuse to follow the laid-down rules, can you still claim to belong to that religion? You might claim yourself that you still belong, but does that count? Wouldn’t that be akin to calling yourself the member of a club after getting booted out from it?

Personally, I tend to agree with the liberal/personal interpretation idea - each individual chooses his/her own subset of rules to adhere to.

But that still doesn’t answer the question if we can call them an adherent to the religion…

P.S. I guess you’ve implemented “Textile” on the comments area too right?

If a mother doesn’t distinguish between her children irrespective of what they are, God won’t either…

If nature doesn’t distinguish between human beings, God won’t…


If your idea is to achieve peace of mind by practicing religion, cut the middle men off..They charge too much these days, sometimes your own life and lead you to perdition :evil:….

Rules in religion are like those in constitution…Times change and so do the rules..

God (being clever) must have added “subject to amendment” clause…This clause itself seems to be amended by the middlemen:tongue3:….

Question to ponder (atheists may skip this):

Was religion created for the betterment of human life or vice versa?:huh:

I think Razib and Jivha came closer to my point than anyone else in the comments - shows you how different the same things can mean to different people when it comes to religion :)

It is like this, let’s say I belong to a book club I got a membership into, because my mom and dad were members - can I still belong to the club if I don’t read books or can’t read them? I know there aren’t such pat situations when it comes to religion and spirituality, but that was kind of what I am thinking of. (Jivha, it is “textile” :))

More on this once I get to work…

Hi,

The way i see it, every religion’s got a core concept and a set of operational rituals ( code of conduct )

Rituals can bring about discipline within a person.
There are some dumb rituals and then, there are rituals which have scientific reasoning behind ‘em.

If a “non thinking” helpless subject blindly follows these rituals dutifully, then there are chances that the subject can become a disciplined person. And through this discipline, the core concept of the religion can be achieved.

I would say ‘core concept” of any religion aims to bring about luv, peace, peace of mind, harmony, order, balance, community dev, a sense of togetherness etc.,

As for me, I ‘am a peace luvin & compassionate Hindu. I go the temple to pray often. I feel good in a temple. The fragrance of fresh flowers, the sound of the bells, the bright radiance of an aarti really appeal to my senses. I appreciate visual forms given to Gods & Godessess in the form of Idols.

I also belive in the ‘force’

Phew! Thats it for now. Later then.
Adios :)

Religion is essentially a personal concept. In some ways it is like a club. In other ways, it differs from the concept of belonging to a club.

The problem occurs when people mistake religion for a club and proceed to hammer others with it.

Alright, to expound more on my comments above, I believe “spirituality” is a personal concept, while religion is a set of rules that are supposed to lead you to the spiritual. I wonder if we break a few of those rules, even if we remain spiritual, can we honestly be members of the religion?

You can find God in rituals, or rituals can be “comfort food” that make you feel closer to your family, friends and heritage as you celebrate your culture embodied by the rituals.

Well alright, since you mentioned “book club”, let me try that roundabout route so I don’t end up religion-bashing.

But first…

Muthu says:

There are some dumb rituals and then, there are rituals which have scientific reasoning behind ‘em.

OK, which are the ones with scientific reasoning behind them?


Now back to the book club…

Let’s try and break this down.

1) What do the rules of the book club say?

a) Does it say “you MUST read the chosen book every month”?

b) Does it say “you COULD TRY TO read the chosen book every month”?

2) If you chose a, what are the penalties for not reading that book? Do the rules say:

a) If you don’t read the book, you no longer belong to the club?

b) If you don’t read the book, you’re still a member, but can never get on the “member of the month” board?


Technically, if you don’t intend to follow all the rules of the book club, you shouldn’t be a member. Some clubs may say that you can’t be a member if you don’t obey them 100%. If you don’t like that, join another club.


Oh, screw it. Do you have any interest in books at all? If not, why are you blindly going along with your parents’ interests?


Try another thought experiment. What if you were in a club because you were a fan of the President of the club? What if you believed that the reason you listened to all his monthly speeches was that you thought he was always right?

Uh huh. But suppose you’re having doubts about a few things the president has said lately. For example, in his last speech, he said you should read odd-numbered pages first till the end of the book, then read the even-numbered pages. That strikes you as a bit dumb and illogical.

Wait a minute. If this dude was illogical about this, could he have been wrong about a few other things that you accepted so blindly? Should you really follow that rule about always wearing your undies on the outside like Superman?

How about if you just left this club altogether and read books on your own terms at your own pace? YOU set the rules you want to follow. Hey, you still like books, you just haven’t found a club whose rules all make sense.

So you become a book lover who is not a member of any club. If people ask you if you like books, you say yes. If they ask you which club you’ve joined, you say, “none”.

No, it’s not mandatory that you be a member of any club. There’s a “Freedom of Clubs” principle that says so.


Of course, you do realise that some people just don’t believe that reading books makes sense, don’t you? ;)

I classify myself as being a Hindu but do I believe in the myriad array of Gods? No.. For me I go by what is the right thing to do, try to harm nobody.. My philopophy is consider everything as an exception to the rule.. My belief is all gods are glorified (hopefully very deservingly) historical figures.. But I call myself Hindu and that is what I am..:beam:

I also think the religion which is a kid of code of conduct should evolve along with people and times.. what was relevant then is no longer.. Its a constitution without a country.. All constitutions all for amendments and so should this..

On the subject of being kicked off the club, did you know that it’s practically impossible to stop the Catholic church from claiming you as its own, if you’ve ever been one? They just won’t let you go! :huh: Read this: How do I get excommunicated?

Like I’ve mentioned before, no organized religion really wants to lose followers. So the rules are all flexible. They might kick you out of the club, but they’ll gladly take your subscription and lend you books. So watcha worryin about?

MadMan, to take your analogy further, I belong to the category of book lovers who don’t belong to a single club, because they like most clubs and don’t want to restrict themselves to one genre, but still keep dropping by their old club once in a while, ‘coz they serve good food :)

Interesting link, Kingsley and good point, Vaishali :)

Yeah, great food! :beam:

In my engineering days, a textbook written in 2002 was considered superior to that written in 2001.

why would anyone consider books hundreds and thousands of years old as being guiding forces of life is beyond me.

yo razib,

nits: it’s 613 commandments, and many of ‘em are not in force cuz they related to the temple; until the temple is restored (not holding my breath) they remain in suspension.;)

Diane, I wish we could find a loop-hole that big in our Hindu texts ;)

>>why would anyone consider books hundreds and thousands of years old as being guiding forces of life is beyond me.

You may get an answer from people who follow Yoga Sutras, written only in 6th Century B.C…