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This is nothing but a move by your dear W, to attract minority voters. Similar to distribution of ration cards to illegal Bangladeshi immigrants in West Bengal and Assam.

Parag, except for the part about him being “my” dear W, you are absolutely right and I think this is a very manipulative and disingenuous move :)

i understand ur frustration, and i agree, that this would be a move for Bush to get minority votes…i understand it is difficult to become a legal american citizen

thing is…as far as i can tell, the government of USA has been letting illegal immigrants in for the low paying jobs, etc. The goverment seems to only use a few folks as examples so the rest of the sillyhead public thinks that we are ‘safe’ from illegal immigration.

I actually WORKED and LIVED with a mexican family for a short spell, all of whom were illegally here. Many of their cousins were in the same state, working illigally, their friends, etc. all illegal. It has been happnening for some time, this is nothing new.

Bush still will not receive my vote.

I agree, demasking - I really hope this initiative is defeated before it can go any further, but I don’t have much hopes of fight from Demo-let’s-geve’em-drivers’ licenses-crats either. I think both parties are after the Hispanic vote and will screw the general population over on this issue.

couldnt agree more ..

the DMV here in cal actually didnt sent me my card license, saying my documents were incomplete, and I should give some more proof of my legal exisance in the US (!!), when I had given them copies of my passport, visa, I-20.. I dont know how else can I prove that i am legal.. and then, there are people who say they are illegal and get the license instantaneously :shocked: !!!!!!

Amen to that, Steppenwolf - it is much easier to live here illegally with all the champions you seem to have tyo around than to jump through the hoops legally.

This is a distinction you don’t often get to see in the papers: the viewpoint of legal immigrants vs. that of illegal immigrants (Michelle Malkin being the only person who comes to mind, and I don’t even know if she was born outside of the USA). Most press stories I read are from the point of view of ‘americans by virtue of accident of birth’, and generally lump all immigrants together.
Also, most liberal/leftist americans (such as myself) will be reticent about expressing vociferous anti-illegal immigrant comments/opinions because it is almost invariably perceived as anti immigrant (no qualifier), and we, after all, didn’t do a damn thing to get here. Of course, one could make an argument that it shouldn’t be so difficult to get in in the first place, but that’s a seperate issue.

Just my two cents.

This is very true of the issue, Sebastian - most Americans-by-birth don’t really know how tough it is to legally maintain status in the country and to immigrate here, so there is little difference to them between legals and illegals.

I also see your point that as an immigrant, I am able to express my views more freely without being labeled anti-immigrant than someone who is a non-immigrant, so it does hinder most who do want to speak up against such stupid laws.

Tell me about it. I applied for an F-1 to go to Gatech for an MS, a couple of years back. Because I live and work in England, I went to the US Embassy in London (just like I go to the London embassy of any country I need to visit for work or pleasure). I was told that since I was an Indian citizen, I should apply there. But when I went to the Consulate in Cal, I was told that since I had applied outside my country of citizenship, they suspected I was not a genuine student !! Needless to say, my application was rejected.

Fortunately, my employer was very supportive and I did the degree via distance-learning anyway. And its not just the US; even in the UK, a highly-educated man, with skills that the government here has defined as being in critically short supply, has to jump through umpteen hoops to be able to come into the country.

On the other hand, even if you don’t speak a word of English and have no skills, you can get in simply by destroying your passport and claiming political persecution. Once in, you never leave even if your asylum applicaton has been rejected. You then go on to form your own closed community, and ensure that even your children only interact with others within the same community - easily accomplished by sending the children to a school run by a religious organisation. And when the whole divided city time-bomb blows - like in Bradford and Oldham, a couple of years back - all the liberal, educated people who came in legally face the backlash as well.

I don’t know where to start. It deeply saddens me to read this, especially because I had somehow come to believe that Indians were capable of looking at the bigger picture in many of these issues, but I guess I was mistaken.

As we talk about illegal immigration here we assume that the government has played no role in it, and there lies our mistake. All of these ‘illegal’ immigrants pay taxes, just like you and I, through tax payer ID numbers that the government grants them, but receive not returns whatsoever. The government knows they’re here, and takes their taxes but in turn gives them no benefits. Do you think that’s right? I am pro closing the borders, and stopping immigration if is necessary for the country, and why not, let’s just round up those $10+ millions illegals and sent them back to their country, but the truth is that the US economy needs them and that’s why we can’t do without them. If I am not mistaken about 70% of the US agriculture depends on these type of workers, and of course all the other low-paying jobs. Do you honestly believe Americans want to work in these types of jobs? The answer is no, and logic would tell me that then we should have brought workers from abroad to do them and give them visas, but we haven’t do so because we have grown accostumed to giving these ‘illegals’ no benefits and low-pay which is mostly benefitial to US companies ( i.e. Walmart ) and indirectly to the government.

These people migrate to the US illegaly because they can’t do it legally, have you thought about it? You are probably here more than likely because you have a degree, you are educated, and the US is in need of people like you, and knows it can’t fool around with your rights and benefits because you will defend them. These workers don’t have this, and they also have a right to look for a better life, just like millions of other non-educated European immigrants did back in the day. What makes these immigrants different from them? Perhaps that back then we were ready to take as many ‘white’ people into the country as possible, but now the immigrants are ‘brown’ and so we can’t take that risk. How can you be so narrow-minded??? Indians, the non-educated ones, migrate illegaly to several countries in the Middle East and Southeast Asia ( i.e. Singapore, being the best example ), and there they take the jobs the citizens don’t want to do. JUST LIKE IN THE US!!!! It happens everywhere!!!… As soon as the US citizens realize there are no jobs left for them in the high tech industry they are going to re-direct their xenophobia to Indians, and we will see who will help you out then. Just because you are here doesn’t mean we can’t come up with new laws to send you back.

And lastly, if you have some faith in God ( however you may call it ) stop and think about others who unlike you were not born in a family that provided them with an education, and consequently the possibility to migrate to this country. What would you have done if you were in the shoes of these illegal aliens? Have you thought about it? If you are a hindu, I hope you reincarnate in one of them and pay for your blasphemy.

Actually, most of the illegal workers don’t earn enough money to pay any taxes. Moreover, they make use of the emergency rooms where they cannot be turned away from, for common illnesses and waste the money I pay in taxes as a legal. They take advantage of the free schools I pay for with my property taxes - why shouldn’t I be pissed off about it, regardless of if I am Indian or not?

Another thing you fail to note is these people don’t carry any kind of insurance, so I end up paying for their share of health care and things like auto insurance if I get into an accident with them. As illegals, they drive down wages and hurt other citizrens and legal immigrants who are not willing to such jobs for that low of a pay. Ultimately, every illegal immigrant is a criminal, by virtue of coming into the country illegally - when one starts off on the wrong foot, how are we to be sure they mean well? I don’t buy your arguments at all.

I understand your arguments, but I ask you one question: how many illegal immigrants do you know? You seem to know so much about their lives, according to you they don’t make enough money to pay taxes neither do pay property taxes. Exactly how is it that you know all of this? If you are honest to yourself you will admit they are mere assumptions. Illegal immigrants pay taxes and get no benefits, except perhaps the ocassional visit to a local hospital for emergency services because their employers give them no health insurance whatsoever. And even then, they paid taxes, so they’re entitled to use those services, aren’t they? Despite their status they are able to buy property and therefore pay property taxes, which pay for school and all other services you think they’re stealing from you.

They pay taxes because they’re promised by immigration lawyers that their tax reports will favor them in an eventual amnesty to give them legal status. If you drive by a Hispanic neighborhood in Dallas you will be surprised how many tax filing services signs you will see, they are quite numerous.

I agree with you that it is a hassle for other drivers that these immigrants don’t have insurance, but whose fault is that? If they were allowed to get drivers licenses, I assure you they would get car insurance. And why should we give them driver licenses? BECAUSE we don’t seem to be stopping them at the border and we are not doing anything to kick them out, PROOF ENOUGH is that there are $10+ million in the country. How do you think that happened? Do you not think the government has just turned a blind eye to this for years? Why would that be? PERHAPS because it’s not profitable to pay high wages to agricultural workers in this capitalistic society of ours.

I think you’re directing your anger towards the wrong player. Illegal immigrants are not here to steal jobs, they are here to work. If there were not jobs offerings for them, they wouldn’t be here. How many, let’s say Hispanic, beggars have you seen in the streets? NONE, they are here to work because they’re needed.

STOP ATTACKING ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS and re-direct your critique towards those who lure them to this land in the first place: COMPANIES. I live in Dallas, and if you need REAL and ACCURATE information about the situation of illegal immigrants I would be more than glad to refer you to professional people that know the FACTS.

Syed, I am researching up further on this and will post as soon as I can get some solid numbers about the impact of illegal immigration on USA - I know plently of Hispanics who have been employed for menial jobs by my neighbors and I know that my maid has an H-1 visa and is here legally to do work I am not able to. Companies that hire illegals are definitely also part of the problem in the immigration issue and I am not letting them off the hook here, either.

All of us legal immigrants have come here in search of a better life too - that doesn’t mean I expect INS to make my life any easier. I follow the rules and I stick to the law. I cannot endorse someone who knowingly breaks it. Anyways, more as soon as I can get something together.

I wouldnt consider myself an expert in this field to know the stats on this matter. I do however think its more than obvious that US gov has intentionally turned a blind eye for years together for their own benifit, which has been explained by many on here. If I may say something as an Indian in the US, a good majority of us have a mind set thats different than the Indian immigrants in the middle east, Singapore and the UK, we tend usually to be more educated and follow legal channels for most things and try to assimilate into the so called mainstream society by buying houses and going to schools in the burbs. We live (try to live) the life of an upper middle class white person…try to disassociate ourselves from the stereotypical lower classes of the society. If you think I am wrong, just think about how many times you have looked down upon that Indian guy you somehow happen to know who works at Walmart. Sure some of us may involve ourselves on weekends to do charitable work in Oakliff but thats where it stops. So also, if one looks past color related prejudice, America views Indian immigrants as smart and usualy very well off.

Having said that, I believe we are rather self centered in that we dont really care about the other underpriviledged Indians back home. Before you blast off on me…..Honestly now, DO WE REALLY? If the answer is yes, may be I need to go into therapy (another white upper middle class trait). We have in some ways gotten content with our stature in the American society and as Seyd pointed out, very accurately if I may add we never bother to look deeper into why some of the illegal immigrants are here and how the world has shaped itself thro time as people migrated all over the globe. The illegal INDIAN immigrants in some other countries are NO DIFFERENT than the illegal immigrants here in the US. Did you try to propose that they should stop going over to those countries??!!!

Average Indian, I really don’t understand how appealing to emotions helps your cause at all in this case - here is the deal, the Government is not in the job of doing charity - they are here to enforce law and make sure people who abide by the laws of the land are not troubled by those who break laws. Individuals should have emotions and can want to do charity and help out the underprivileged.

Another thing is that I don’t understand the bringing up of race in this issue - how is that relevant if I am white or Indian or Hispanic? The law should treat all the same. Just because Indians immigrate illegally to other places doesn’t mean I should sympathize with illegals in USA - what is the logic there? I don’t sympathize with illegal Indians in the US either - if they are caught, they deserve every bit of trouble they get. Not everyone is born with a silver spoon in their mouth, but it is not somebody else’s obligation to make sure everyone gets somewhere legally or illegally either.

If anything, it is absolutely galling and seems like a slap in the face to me, since I have jumped through every single hoop and paid through my nose to be where I am right now - legally

How exactly does it hurt you if some people have it easy? Are they having things easy at your expense?

If you are complaining about them getting facilities at the expense of your tax money, then you should complain about why these millions of illegal immigrants are allowed within the borders in the first place. why does not the US of A with a huge army and the latest technology, guard the borders and the coast?

but your complaining that they are getting the easy way in seems kinda churlish, because that seems to be doing no actual harm to you. this “slap in your face” seems more like a case of empty pride being hurt, because you somehow feel your legal entry deserves applause or something.

so they are getting a short cut. big deal. you must have gotten short cuts in other walks of life that they didnt. as long as it isnt at your expense, get over it.

and if you are going to start saying they are “criminals”, because they are “breaking the law” and all, then read up some libertarian literature. A nice place to start would be Ravi’s “death of a law” that you have nominated.

nice to be back here after ages, by the way. :beam: seems like you are enjoying pregnancy. and now that a boy is confirmed, might I once again push for the extremely original and rare name - gaurav? ;)

Let us look at a simple example, Gaurav - let us say you have citizens in a city who work really hard to earn their living and keep to the laws. Let us say one fine day 100 of those people break into the bank and steal a few million, but are pardoned and lare allowed to integrate back in the society without any consequences - how are you going to explain to the law-abiding citizens that they should keep to the laws in the future too? What is the point of the laws if they are not applied equally to all people?

As for the US with her great technology and forces unable to guard the borders, why don’t you consider the sheer numbers involved? According to this site, over 700,000 people manage to enter the US illegally - imagine how many others have been turned back - in spite of all that, there are these many illegals coming in every single year. Do you think India with her population be able to sustain this kind of illegal immigration from let’s say Bangladesh? Would people living in India allow that?

As for the baby name, I am still trying extra-hard to convince my husband about some I like - we will see what happens :)

when my aunt in LA chose a name for her baby last year, one criteria was that it should be easy for Americans to pronounce. Are you thinking along the same lines?

now, coming to what you said. if 100 people rob a bank, they are actually robbing someone. they are taking money that belongs to someone else and are infringing on someone’s else’s right. the logic behind punishing them should not be “if we dont punish them, others will do so too.”. the logic should be “they stole something that wasnt theirs. punish them.”

i am saying that these illegal immigrants dont seem to be infringing on someone else’s rights, like it is with bank robbers.

they got here in big numbers. from what i read most of them find some employment or the other. since they arent citizens, they dont get dole. now if they are in the USA, won’t it be better to integrate them into the mainstream, and move on with life?

I am not promoting illegal immigration here. I am just saying that them getting a lucky break should not be considered a slap on your face, since no skin is being taken off your nose.

A few years back, the GoI launched a voluntary disclosure of income scheme. This was a money laundering operation carried out by the state, i.e you discolse the income you have, pay tax on it, and move on with life. No one will ask you any questions like where you got the money.

Now it can be seen as a “slap on the face” of taxpayers that encourages the grey market. Or it can be seen as an attempt to reduce the amount of black money in the economy.

Similarly, I see this as an attempt to solve the immigration mess. As someone else commented, these illegal immigrants are vital to many sections of the US.

And yes, if you so oppose the move, what is your solution? round them up in lakhs and deport them?

One thing at a time - for one, illegal immigrants tend to lower the wages on the lower end of the job spectrum, which does adversely affect the unskilled labor of local Americans. In such instances, they are taking away from many Americans, a chance to win decent living wages while being a blue-collar worker.

Just because illegal immigrants are not citizens, doesn’t mean they don’t get free stuff - as I mentioned earlier, they get free healthcare in ERs where they cannot be turned away from and free schooling from public schools where the legals pay property taxes for.

As you can read in the link in my previous comment, Bush’s is not the first amnesty program for illegals - time and again, presidents (including Reagan) promised Americans that if we implement it this once, illegal immigration will stop from now on. As we can see, none of those programs have helped much except to provide new illegals with a sense of security that once they get in, they can find a way to legalize their presence. You make laws to disincentivize the breaking of the law - if that is not implemented, there is no incentive to playing by the law - the law might as well be removed from the books.

I am not saying all the illegal immigrants must be rounded up and deported - that is an extreme solution and impractical to implement - while the politicians are busy bleating about national security, I find it absolutely hypocritical of them to condone the influx of illegals into the country, some of whom might be terrorists. What I do want to the Government to do is that stop with trying to band-aid the situation and instead try to find out a feasible and long-term solution that puts the rights of citizens and legal immigrants over the illegals.

If you are working illegally, you dont have a Social Security Number and hence you dont have to pay tax. You are staying in a country which requires you to pay tax to get all the wonderful infrastructure we have. These people are freeloading by earning income without paying for the benefits.

for one, illegal immigrants tend to lower the wages on the lower end of the job spectrum, which does adversely affect the unskilled labor of local Americans. In such instances, they are taking away from many Americans, a chance to win decent living wages while being a blue-collar worker.

that’s what the philosophy of a free market economy is all about. you might say chinese products lower the prices and affect american manufacturing. is this not the same cry being raised by those who oppose outsurcing jobs to india?

in a globalised economy, if you feel products should be allowed to move freely without any restrictions, so should people.

Vote for me http://www.yazadjal.com/mt/archives/000188.html
This is not spam.

Gaurav, I have absolutely no problem with free markets - the only problem here is that legally employed people need to paid a minimum wage per law to maintain a decent standard of living, which is not adhered to in the case of illegals. This is mostly a problem for the people in the lower strata of the society who are already struggling to make ends meet.

Ravi, nice campaign :tongue3:

errr…if you support minimum wage, you are not really a supporter of free markets.

I support everything to an extent - I like the idea of minimum wages, since it does help those who are more often than not shafted by policies they have had no hand in creating or influencing - the little man.

Let illegals pay let’s say $ 50000 $ (sort of penalty) to become legal if they love US so much. I think it’s a good proof that they really want to live, work and pay taxes in this country instead of going back with cash. They might pay it off just like a mortgage on a house.
There are 12 million illegals, if only 3,000,000 of them pays:

$3,000,000 * $50,000 = $150,000,000,000 + extra in taxes they will have to pay in the future…

I think it’s a nice amount for improvement of the economy, poorest families ,communities , education I don’t know whatever…
just a thought…

Did we forget that legals are tax paying citizens and illegals are not!!! They are hurting our economy. These foreigners technically don’t exist, so who pays for the damage to my car when one of them runs into. Who pays for their food while they sit in our prison systems. Who pays for their health care! This is so upsetting.
Indians especially, come here illegally and are so disassociated with the rest of society. They live in their own little world. What good do they really do for America can someone please tell me. Show me one who’s decided to join the service, or volunteer to help our country, the number would be so few, yet they want our jobs, and our money(so they can send it back to their country, their family) They want to share in our freedom to take what they want and not give anything back in return. Damn the Indians. They can take their culture and their illegal kids and get out of my America! God Bless America. Indians are a Heathan culture anyways!

:beam:

Wow! How many illegal Indians have you seen in your life, Sharon? All those silicon valley types who have made America cutting-edge in technology? Get off your hate-filled soapbox and look around - we are one of the the wealthiest communities in the US and are paying way more than any other ethnic community for the running of this country.

i don`t know about anyone else but my neighborhood has gone from a nice, quiet, safe, and friendly place to little mexico hell in the last two years. i`m sick of the loud parties and the little punk mexican kids with their graffiti, loud music and the dirty looks i get when i tell them to get out of my yard, they won`t play in their own yard because there`s no grass left from neglect. for some reason they believe it`s okay to let your dog bark 24 hrs a day and when the dog catcher comes they flip me the bird and call me unflattering names and then i hear how we should welcome these degenerates with open arms and spend billions on food,health care, and housing for people who could care less about learning my countrys language or even obeying our laws. screw these blood sucking leaches and arrest them all and send them back to their own country before they ruin ours!

What illegal and legal , In america , everybody came as illegal , They never applied visa from red Indian. so this is God’s Own countary , live here and enjoy (if you able to cross the border)

Dude, by that stupid logic every country should be OK to get into illegally - no one had immigration and visas to get anywhere in the world initially now, did they?

What Sharon said was based on hate. But claiming that Indian immigration is only thro high tech employment is wrong. There are lot of indians here without proper visa. Go deeper into the business and workers community and you can see them. The reason for less number of Indian illegals compare to Mexicans illegals is that we dont have a land border to cross thats all.

Immigration in every country will have loopholes. It is done purposefully. Your argument of strictly imposing that is not feasible. Because there is a market for labor. How many US born citizens will be willing to do janitor jobs? How many of them will work for minimum wages? If they dont allow these out of status or without status workers to work and live here you will be paying more for what you buy and your employer will end up paying less to you because he needs to pay more for his cleaning crew and maintenance crew.

The problem we face is because of globalisation of human resource. If capital and products can move borders based on multilateral agreements, why cant labors move across borders? It is illegal because the demand is high but law allows only limited quantities. It is like when we have high tarriffs and strict custom duty, products will be smuggeled and sold illegal. So I think Bush’s policy of workers with card will make the without status workers to reduce a lot. But it cant completely eradicate it.

Chok, I agree with you that every law is going to be broken by someone or the other. Does that mean we let law-breakers go? I think they all ought to be punished as they are found. I personally know a bunch of Indians who are here illegally and later got converted into legal immigrants - I agree they exist, even if in extremely tiny numbers compared to others.

I don’t think the tiny number of Indian illegals is due to a lack of shared border, though - remember the Chinese illegals being shipped in cargo containers? I think it might actually be because Indians have higher standards of living or atleast way more satisfaction with their lives in India than do others.

There are more than a million illegal South Asians in the US, out of which a fair number are Indians.
Also a small percentage of Indians who ‘immigrate’ to the US are working for software companies.
Most Indians get immigration through family based quotas. Indians on H-1B are non immigrants.
Its interesting that some Indian immigrants get all upset when some racist american says something critical about ‘Indians’ while at the same time they have no problems beating up on Blacks, Arabs or Mexicans.
Also in the American psyche, Indians are associated with driving cabs and owning 7-11’s and motels as exemplified by the depiction of ‘Indians’ in the popular media.

One thing at a time - people who immigrate through family quotas are legal immigrants - not relevant.

Saying a a majority of Hi-tech workers are of Indian origin does not mean a majority of Indians are hi-tech workers. I am equally proud of all the motel owners, restaurant owners and others who do great without being in hi-tech.

Beating up on blacks and Hispanics? You are way off-base if you equate my comments on illegalimmigration with someone else’s blatantly racist blather. Guess what, I want the government to be equally tough on illegal immigrant Indians as I want them to be on anyone else. According to USCIS, 2.7 million of the 5 million “officially illegal aliens” are from Mexico - contrast that with the 33,000 estimated from India. The numbers are no where close.

Mexico’s per capita gdp is almost 8 times than that of India.
If India was bordering USA, the number of illegal Indians would far outnumber the Mexican illegal immigration number.

Per Capita GDP of China - $3600
Per Capita GDP of India - $1720 (Per this website)

I don’t see many Indians trying to jump ship to China.

Again, talking in hypotheticals maybe great for intellectual exercise but I prefer dealing with facts and what is happening in the real world. Fact is, there are illegal immigrants in the US - they are a burden on the society in a lot of ways and I want them to be punished as fit regardless of what their original nationality is.

What do you mean illegal immigrants?
do u mean the 90% of the people who stay in US who Illegally grabbed the land from native americans.
Do you mean the illegal immigrants from europe who occupied the land illegally through murder theft and slavery?

Dont be ridiculous santhi.. You dont own America’s land to stop immigrants from coming.

NO ONE IS ILLEGAL.

Oh dear, why is it whenever we finally get back to having calm and civilized discussions the children try to get in the way?

Swapna sweety, go take a nap, relax a bit and then we can talk reasonably.

Shanti, What is the punishment you think for these so called illegal immigrants? What do you mean breaking law in immigration? Do you know how companies use H1 and L1 program and uses all loop holes to bring Indian programmers? If the law is strictly enforced most of the H1 programmers cant get a visa. Do you know that? I make this argument because of your comparison between legal immigration and illegal immigration. Also dont compare illegal immigration with a bank robbery. Illegal immigration is not a crime. You need to check your perception about this. If you complain that illegals drive down wages. Same way US citizens can complain about H1 programmers with low cost education driving down wages in high tech sector.

Also my argument is US is in need of these workers. There is a market but laws doesnt allow the supply of workers so these kind of “illegal” workers are entering. It is all part of globalisation. If products and capital can move then why not services and human resource? If you completely stop mexican labor movement into US, US will become less competitive. So US needs to reform its immigration system to accomodate these workers. OTherwise market forces will balance itself by using black market workers. When you argue for free market it has to be completely free in all possible ways. Controlled or regulated free market is an oxymoron.

About Chinese coming by containers, it is a wrong argument check the illegals table in USCIS site you gave. Chinese illegals are not even in top 20. Chinese illegals try to come by containers to US so do Indian illegals tries to go by container to european countries. It is based on historical relations with these countries and everywhere there will be desperate people tries to use desperate methods.

Chok, illegal immigration is not bank robbery - not wearing a seat belt in your car is not bank robbery either. You are still going to be punished by the police if you are caught at it. Crime is crime and needs to be punished to the extent that law allows. When did I say that people who use loopholes to get H1 visas shouldn’t be punished? They should be punished too.

The point you are all failing to see is that regardless of what nation illegal immigrants are coming from doesn’t matter to me. I want them all punished - I am not arguing that somehow illegal immigrants from India should get special treatment even if they hold Masters’ degrees vs. poor ones from Mexico.

You are conflating two different arguments into one here - one was my general gripe with illegal immigrants - the other was with the racist lady who posted a comment above saying that all Indians suck.

I want to know whether you think that undocumented workers are wrong or it is against law and so you are saying it is wrong?

Using a loophole in a law is not illegal. Some laws are designed with loop holes and defined vague so it wont become too rigid. Using H1 loopholes is not illegal. Using a technicality of a law to escape is not punishable.

Who defines a crime? If law defines crimes there are thousands of antiquated laws which will make lot of commonsense practices as illegal. My argument is illegal immigration is one of those antiquated laws which doesnt allow legal worker programs. So instead of enforcing those laws change the law. Mindless application of laws will create chaos.

Illegal immigration is against the law and I think it is wrong. Do you seriously think America can handle the open borders that will result if all immigration were made legal?

Is it wrong because its against the law or is it because it was wrong someone decided to slap a law against it? If the former then you are back to Chok’s argument where he says that there are just too many antiquated laws that don’t pass muster if you really apply your mind to why they were installed in the first place. If the latter, then exactly who defines what is wrong and why it is wrong? You are back to gaurav’s argument where its starting to sound like hurt pride.

Lets consider what illegal immigrants really don’t do:

They don’t steal your jobs.

They take up all kinds of menial work that an average american would just refuse to even consider.

They take up jobs that have poor wages and have no mobility whether upward or downward or sideward.

This country’s farm produce employs nearly 60% illegal immigrants who get paid somewhere like $6/hr. Employing an american to the same job (even if he/she decides to take it up) is bound to shoot the wages up by atleast 100%. That in turn increases the cost of farm produce that in turn increases the cost of essential groceries. This is not a small thing.

The nanny job is literally flooded with immigrants. For a paltry, again some 6 bucks an hr, they have to run behind some unknown kid who probably cares two hoots abt you.

Who is going to hang around in gas stations waiting to dry cars coming out of the car wash for another paltry amount which they will probably split with the gas station owner?

I could go on & on about all kinds of distasteful work that these guys do w/o complaining bit because they think they are getting a better deal for their families.

Comparing this to bank robbery is really heartless.

This is what illegal immigrants do -

TB: A manifestation of failed enforcement

“The story of Feliciano Morelos, the illegal immigrant who spread tuberculosis up and down the West Coast, is a case study on how illegal immigration causes real danger to American society.

As senior writer Melinda Burns pointed out in her April 25 News-Press report, had Mr. Morelos immigrated legally to the United States, he would have been screened for tuberculosis and denied entry. But he wasn’t, and has been credited with infecting 56 other people. In 1996, the John Hopkins Center for Tuberculosis Research estimated it cost $13,000 to treat each case of TB. Counting Mr. Morelos, that means it cost U.S. taxpayers $741,000 in 1996 dollars to stem the Morelos-caused epidemic.

But, as frightening as the Morelos story is, it’s only the tip of the iceberg. About 53 percent of the people diagnosed in the United States each year with TB are born outside the U.S. In the Los Angeles area, 80 percent of people infected with TB are foreign-born, with Mexico leading the way, followed by the Philippines, Vietnam, India and China.

In 2002, there were 15,075 cases of TB diagnosed in the U.S., according to the Centers for Disease Control. That’s a national health cost of $196 million—in 1996 dollars.

In the 1940s, the United States launched a concerted effort to wipe out tuberculosis within our borders. It was largely successful, and by 1983, TB cases hit an all-time low. Then, as illegal immigration began to surge after the 1986 amnesty, so did tuberculosis. ”

and

“Illegal immigrants aren’t likely to have health insurance. When sick, even if the illness is minor, illegal immigrants tend to go to emergency rooms to be treated. Emergency rooms, equipped as trauma centers, are by nature the most expensive health care centers available. When filled by people with minor ailments, they also cannot give proper care to those in crisis.

It’s an unbearable burden. In Los Angeles County, six county hospitals and nine public clinics have closed since 1999 because of unpaid care. Santa Barbara-based Tenet is trying to sell another 14 hospitals in L.A., and will close them by year’s end if buyers are not found. Santa Paula Hospital closed this year because of the crippling burden of uncompensated care.

A California Medical Association study found that 82 percent of the state’s emergency rooms lost money in 2002. It costs emergency rooms an estimated $325 million a year and emergency room doctors another $110 million a year to provide uncompensated care. That’s in addition to the $648 million California and the federal government reimbursed health care providers for services extended to illegal immigrants. Such burdens hurt those who can least afford it, our native working poor who lose access to the only health care available to them. ”

Here is another interesting discussion on the topic and a very good comment -
” don’t stop by here very often, but when I do…boy oh boy…!


“For “undocumented aliens” (no word on how hospitals are to identify this group in the first place)”

…from their lack of documents, maybe?


hphovercraft posted on May 11, 2004 11:13 AM:

“Know-nothings like you people don’t care whether immigrants are really good for this country, and you don’t even care whether evidence supports your flimsy arguments.”

So, what do YOU know, then? I mean, besides calling people names and falling back on cheeseball talking-point cliches, that is. If you have empirical data on the subject on how “good for this country” it is to import millions of people, pay them unlivable wages for grueling labor, and keep them trapped in crushing poverty, please share.

“All you care about is preserving the honky status quo.”

I don’t know if you’ve been to Los Angeles lately, but I got news for you: there hasn’t been a honky status quo for decades, and folks have been just fine with that. There WERE a few hundred people crammed into a three-bedroom house in Canoga Park. Explain the compassion inherent in this situation to all the know-nothings.

While you’re at it, you could explain why Mexico is unable or unwilling to take care of its own. THIS should be good.

“Here’s the good news for pro-immigrant advocates: immigration will never stop”

Did anyone assume it ever did? People come here all the time, have done it for centuries. What does xenophobia have to do with anything? You can do better than that, can’t you?


Then james posted on May 11, 2004 03:46 PM

“I am for open immegration from Mexico.”

For Mexican nationals only, or anyone who chooses to enter the US through that border? (This is why we’re sending troops to Iraq: to protect our borders. Or something.)

“Another reason is that it would be extremely difficult to establish and prove what an “illegal” is.”

Really? I bet if you or I went to, say, France or Cuba (or Mexico) without proper identication, they’d figure out pretty quickly whether we belonged there or not, especially if we were to apply for social benefits.

But you got this next part right:

“As for illegal aliens receiving our social welfare services, is there anywhere we should draw the line? Should we provide expensive services for free to anyone who asks, regardless of which country they’re a citizen of? What if 10 million more people come here, all wanting their free services?”

Let’s see…10 million people divided by 300 per house…yeah, there’s room for everyone…


The Lonewacko Blog posted on May 11, 2004 04:24 PM

“And, isn’t providing free services a bit of an incentive for people to come here? If we gladly and freely provide free services to anyone who asks, won’t millions and millions of people move here? Won’t that eventually send other states the way of California? (closed trauma centers, too many students and even a $10 billion school-building-plan won’t provide enough seats, etc. etc. etc.) Even socialism requires a closed system. Consult your copy of the Manifesto.”

…IS the correct answer!


Finally, james posted on May 12, 2004 12:14 PM

“I am not really concerned with long time illegal immigrants. I figure if they can fly under the raidar for a long enough period of time, the country is better off having them here.”

Which country, the US or Mexico? If you mean the US, do you have actual figures to support the assertion that “the country is better off”? If 40 or 50 people live in a house instead of four or five, is that better for the economy? Does anyone think this is a swell idea?

And really, isn’t the pro-illegal-immigration sentiment just an attempt to rationalize the exploitation of millions of economic refugees from another country? “As long as they mow our lawns and clean the houses and get paid crap wages, we can continue with our lazy, spoiled gringo lifestyle”? That’s pretty dehumanizing in itself, don’t you think?

Remember: the more you support rampant illegal immigration, the more you support Bush’s policies. It’s hard to accept - believe me, I’d be pissed off if I found myself in that position! - but acceptance is the first step towards recovery.

Vote early, vote often!

Thank you.

Posted by: Ray Syste (and his pal Zena Foebeeah) “

More on the impact of illegal immigration - The Costs of Illegal Immigration
Illegals Cost Feds $10 Billion a Year; Amnesty Would Nearly Triple Cost

Shanti,
You want to see articles and statistics on the problems caused by H-1B’s and L-1.
Almost all Green Cards given to H-1B’s are not in accordance to the Immigration Law. Do you even know what Lawyers do when these Green Cards are given to H-1b. I know that because I have worked in an Immigration Law Firm.
My friends dad who has worked as computer programer for decades cant find a job because some kid from India is willing to do the job at one third of what my friends dad used to make.
Whats the point in getting busloads of Indian techies when hundreds of thousands of Americans are unemployed in the IT sector..

You do have a point there, Mujahid. I completely agree there needs to be a reform in every single sector of immigration. The only reason why I mentioned the H1 people being better is in relation to Sharon’s accusations about Indians not paying taxes. I am all for making things fair.

Shanti, Do you think US standard of living at this cost is possible without these workers? What I’m trying to point out is what is the reason behind these illegals?

US cant have open borders and open immigration. It will have a adverse impact on US citizens lifestyle. I accept that. But in globalisation and free market, supply and demand should drive things. US has intellectual rights and technology to sell to other countries. Mexico, INdia and CHina has human resources to sell. So US eventually needs to open immigration if it is honest about free trade. Free trade was preached as opening borders for capital and products. But for third world countries to participate as a seller, human resources should also be a part of it. Otherwise it will be like western countries taking advantage of the third world countries.

If there is a demand too much controls will create a black market. You are not acknowleding that. And all these TB, impact on public health, cost on the US budget is all are because that market is black. Identify the individuals so you can track them. Make it white then it will be diffrent. But for to make it white it will have a impact on the lives of vulnerable US citizens. It is the case when India or any third world country opened its trade. Upper and middle class benefits from free trade. But lower class are drastically affect by it. Same way US citizens needs to take the bitter pill and needs to have more open immigration policies on low skill work. They cant expect only bright and powerful should enter US.

I think we differ because you beleive in regulated free market. I dont beleive in that. There can be people who beleive in free market or not. Thats all. If you say free and started saying to some extent then it is no more free.

Chok, I think you make some very good and fair points - I definitely accept that. My problem is that every country talks the talk about globalization and free trade, but not many walk the walk unless there is some advantage to them. If we keep letting illegal immigrants from Mexico come over here, it is great for the Mexican government because of the foreign currency reserves these immigrants send back and it also lets the Mexican government get away with its shoddy policies that bring nothing but poverty to its citizens.

Second of all, most illegal immigrants belong to the lower strata of economic class and a bulging lower economic class is bad for the economy because ultimately they pay very less or no taxes and a greater share of the tax burden is pushed on to the higher tax brackets than ever. Not every one in the higher tax bracket is rich - the really rich have their accountants to minimize their tax responsbility which will leave the middle class bearing the brunt of everything.

Shanti, US still needs lot of manual labor and lot of dirty work with minimal wage is still available. And you wont get any US born people to work on those jobs. Mexicans come here not only because of their own benefits. They come here because US economy and people depend on those workers. Thats why there is a demand. And they cater to the demand.

Yes bulging lower economic class will consume more middle class tax. But if you pay more to those services then price will go up. So which one do you want? Lower tax or lower cost of products and services?

Dont give the argument about allowing Mexicans will inturn make their government to be more corrupt so we should control that, that is same as applying sanctions on some country because ruler is wrong. You are hurting the people of that country without even making a dent on the ruler.

I was so frustrated with illegal immigration in my community I wrote a book on it. I used the governments own stats. The day I did my first radio interview this past March, my sister in law’s aunt was murdered (in her church) by an illegal immigrant that President Bush would call a guest
worker. Open borders means no security. Read about it if you like… Selling Out Americans at
www.reddogpress.com

Well, I have to say i dont beleive anyone that is here illegally deserves to be here. illegal is illegal. whoever turned a blind eye many years ago and let them in so be it. dont even mention it today…this is a new america and we are always changing for the better though we make mistakes we change and we learn thru them.
I agree that immigration is a tough task ..especially if u have gone thru it. and i have my questions about it myself that i dont understand but, don’t you think that it is here to help protect us the U.S citizen.? you might not think it personally if you are an immigrant here but if u have lived here in the usa all your life then u might think so even before 911… yes i beleive immigrants come here to work for there welfare.. of course wouldnt you if you were them? i look to both sides of the issues and i can understand them…but, i do beleive that there has to be some control of them (immigrants )for many reasons and there is only so many are allowed into the u.s/ yr.. depending from what country they are from, over population yes jobs, the use of our welfare system..and yes its getting tougher for them to use it even to the poor american…medicare and many other resourse that are free to them. This does burden our system.but, I would agree that if they are legal immigrants then they are surely entitled to it. legal immigrants have a ssn number and they will pay taxes if they work. so what i can say: “To get to the bone” is illegal no mercy…Go home. Legal welcome to the U.S.A