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Gosh, never seen a BIGGER IDIOT like you!!

Guess what?!?! The people here are LOSERS in the world. So DEVOID of depth are you people, you keep looking at things only SUPERFICIALLY.

Trust me, for SHALLOW people like you, ART is completely out of reach! You are CHAMPIONS of mediocrity, or ORDINARITY.

The GREATEST artists, scientists and ALL progressive thinkers in the world have been LIBERAL , so you guys basically believe that what the billions of IGNORANT and ORDINARY people think in the world is right. This again proves that the people here indulge in the glorification of the ORDINARY. So BASE and DUMB are you guys, you cannot even recognize GENIAL thoughts.

LOL, suits you guys!! Because such a personality can get you NOWHERE in life, atleast NOT on the backdoors of fame, unless you stand for the elections :p

So Arundhati Roy will write her next novel and win the Booker Prize again, Sean Penn will keep winning his Oscars, and basically, all liberal thinkers will keep EXCELLING in the field of creative arts, while you LOSERS will be stuck in the rut of your ordinary jobs.

Unlike these artists, after your death, you will ALL BE FORGOTTEN. MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHA!!

Too bad too many people are getting conned by A Roy. I mean, it is depressing to see so many apparently smart people laboring hard to critique her in such earnestness! And she is laughing all the way to her bank. Which is why I think John Dolan is a genius. He is one white bloke who saw through Roy’s game:

.. she is a fraud. A literary careerist who has parlayed an overwritten melodrama into unearned fame; a child of privilege whose early experiments in poverty were no more than a smart career move; a Yuppie whose real job was aerobics instructor, not slum bottle-recycler; a world-travelled, overeducated dilettante posing as a regional writer; and a fake saint who … her way to fame and survives, in spite of her complete lack of talent, because her crude scolding warms the heart of old British lefties who love it when their tame Indian slaves get up on their hind legs to denounce the bloody Americans, who oppress the world so much less skillfully than they used to.

http://www.exile.ru/138/great_literatury_frauds_of_our_time.html

Must read.

Cheers,
Raghu

Oh my God, tell me you did not just linked to a Fox News article. Is that your main source of news? Please consider watching a documentary titled Outfoxed.

Arundhita Roys sin is that she criticised Bush and you are his agents.

And I thought the Booker was awarded on literary merit, not political affiliation.

Seyd, didn’t a suicide bomber kill 35 children in Iraq? How is that false because it was on Fox News? Get a grip, will ya - that was the first link I found for that piece of news, so I posted it. I thought you were better than taeko, dare and such hysterical personalities who don’t want to argue and talk crazy nonsense instead.

I forgot, Taeko and dare? please keep dropping by - we thank you for the amusement you provide us :)

I dont understand you guys. How can you be so hypocrite? When you point out civilian casualities by insurgents why cant you talk about the civilian casualities by US force?

Shanti you support a side which killed thousands of civilians in this war and it is still killing.

In war people die. Either you support war or not. When you support it, dont complain about the way other side is fighting. I find it hypocrisy. If you have guided missiles they have human bomb. You cant claim civilian casualities by your side is collateral damage and by other side is killing.

Shanti,
Has there ever been an occupation you havnt supported .
Chechnya, Palestine and now Iraq. If you were born a few centuries earlier, you would be writing blogs condemning the barbaric Bengalis for opposing the benevolent rule of ‘LORD’ clive.

Arundhati Roy justifying Taliban!
Here are the excerts from Arundhati Roy’s article on at
“Insult and injury
in Afghanistan
America’s ill-conceived war on terror”

Reading the following paragraph I couldn’t help but feel totally aghast at the way she is justifying Taliban and their atrocities. Just look at the sentence “Now, as adults and rulers, the Taliban beat, stone, rape
and brutalize women, they don’t seem to know what else to do with them.”
Unbelievable!

I’ve always found that insulting someone is the best way to win them over to your side. I’m glad to see the others on this comment board have learned that lesson as well.

Roy may continue to win Books, and Sean Penn may continue to wind Oscars - but those are hardly awards given by representative bodies. So long as you hit upon themes that appeal to judges in such comptetions, it does not matter how crappy your “art” is. By the way, Sean Penn was much better in The Falcon and the Snowman - all he did last year was contort his face like Jim Carey, and yell a lot. Oscar judges like guys who yell. As for Roy - her Booker prize money can go a lot farther in poorer India than Britain. Is she staying in India out of conscience, or cause of favorable purchasing power?

Fox News may have a slight right tilt, but it doesn’t report forged documents as genuine (CBS) nor does it report a Bush rally in WI booing the news of Clinton undergoing surgery (Associated Press - they retracted the story within 30 minutes). Nor does Fox allow its salaried employees to work as unpaid advisors to a presidential campaign - unlike CNN (Clinton News Network), which is allowing Paul Begala and James Carville to advise the Kerry campaign.

KXB you are correct. Faux News is indeed the beacon of objectivity. I dream about and pray to our Lord Jesus that one day the whole media becomes as objective and fair & balanced as Faux News.

Accident and murder - both end in death, but there is a major difference between the two, Mujahid.

Accident and Murder. Good classicification. But the people who lost the kids and relatives, they wont go by that classification. You as a moral preacher can use those classification.

Because US claim that it has precision weapons, so if precision fails it is an accident. It is not a fault of US. Is that is what your claim? Shanti here we are talking about lives. Not about some computer games.
In war you cant have rules. That is what US did in Japan
“We have used it in order to shorten the agony of war, in order to save the lives of thousands and thousands of young Americans. We shall continue to use it until we completely destroy Japan’s power to make war.”
THis is by Truman after US bomb killing nearly 100,000 Japanese civilians.
In war it is only killing. No accidents or murder.

I dont support any war. That is my opinion. But if you support a war then you cant say how the other side should fight.

Mujahid, you said I support every occupation I see. I wonder how you can possibly read my mind, but here is the deal. Just because I condemned the Chechnyans for murdering little kids doesn’t mean I support Russia and the way they have been dealing with Chechnya. I have the moral integrity and consistency to actually condemn brutal tactics regardless of which side uses them. You assumed I was supporting Russia since I condemned Chechnya - isn’t that a little like George Bush’s “You’re with us or against us” that you so vocally condemn?

As for Israel and Palestine, I will decry Israel the day Israelis pick a school bus full of children and blow it up to make the maximum impact. I see Israel taking pains as to avoid casulaties on the Palestinian side while I see Palestinian suicide bombers packing the bombs with nails and picking the elderly, women and children to maximize deaths and injuries - the choice is a no-nrainer to me.

As for the Iraqi “insurgents”, before jumping up and down in the eagerness to support them, you might stop a minute and understand the fact that the children killed were all Iraqi. How is killing Iraqi children going to hurt America? How do you resist an “occupation” by murdering the occupied? Chok, how about you answer that one for me since you seem to take the “moral equivalence” game very seriously and don’t see any problem with the tactics?

Mujahid, you couldn’t bring yourself to utter one condemnation against the massacre of kids in Besslan without adding a “but” at the end to make moral equivalences - surprisingly you were crying rivers at the Gujarat massacre. I condemend Besslan and Gujarat unequivocally without dancing around. Don’t you tell me how I react to things!

Ah, Mujahid,

I never said that Fox was fair or objective. But rather than refute the charges against CNN, CBS, and AP, you resort to a rather un-clever play on words. Charming. It’s interesting how the left throws a hissy-fit over Fox - as if one network is gonna outweigh ABC/CBS/NBC/AP/CNN/MSNBC/NPR/Reuters/NY Times/ LA Times? So much for the all-important diversity that the left loves to talk about.

Shanti,
To make things clear, do you or do you not support the occupation of West Bank and Gaza ?
I am not asking you whether you believe that Palestinians have a right to doing suicide bombings or not.
My question is simple. Do you believe that the occupation of West Bank and Gaza is wrong ?

Shanti,
I am sorry that my ‘crying a river’ over Gujarat made you upset. I guess I should not have cried a river but said what your beloved Mr Modi said ’ every action has………”

Mujahid, I believe the occupation of West Bank and Gaza is wrong and that ultimately the regions belong to the Palestinian people. I believe Israel will back off and do the right thing if they can be convinced that giving up the occupation will improve their security.

Now, you tell me - what do you think of the Palestinan suicide bombers who pick pizza places and icecream parlors during midday to maximize the probability of children dying and the attacks on partying teenagers in discos.

Mujahid, let me first acknowledge you as the master twister of words. Guess what, when one loses substance in an argument they resort to twisting their opponent’s words. I am not upset you “cried a river” over Gujarat - I was upset that you couldn’t bring yourself do the same over dead Russian children. I was calling you out on your selective outrage and double standards.

Shanti,
I am glad you believe that the occupation of West Bank and Gaza is wrong.
I dont support the Palestinian murderous attacks on Israeli citizens. I think its wrong and I hope they stop doing that. I also think that suicide bombings by Palestinians delegitimizes their otherwise righteous independence struggle for self determination. However I also believe that the Israelis should pull out of West Bank and Gaza ‘before’ their security situation improves. Occupation is wrong period. The Israelis started the conflict by occupying. They need to end the occupation first and make security demands later.
Re : Gujarat
I went back and checked your archives. You did condemn Modi without equivocation. The reason I called Modi your beloved leader was because I thought that you were one of the Hinduvta types. So I retract my statement of Modi being your beloved leader. :tongue3:

Lalahoo Choka Nair Sudhakar Mukta. Where you been all these days? It was so boring.

In war people die.

No way Choka. In war people don’t die. Slodiers die. Fighters are killed. Armies perish. That’s what is war.

But when a bunch of sleazeballs specifically target children, starve them for three days, rape them, make them drink their own urine, —- it’s no war. It is terrorism, plain and simple.

I can understand that Musharraf would like to call that ‘war’, Choka, given that he also calls the murders in Kashmir a “freedom struggle”. But why you Nair Choka, given that you are also Moraluddin?

In war you cant have rules.

In war you do have rules actually. To violate them is to commit war crimes. The Cheche/Kashmiri/Hamas “freedom-fighters” don’t have any rules, scruples and and basic human decencies. In fact, they are not even human. That is why the world calls them terrorists.

Always available to educate you,

Cheers,
RR

Chok,
Mr Raghu Reddy (RR) relishes debating. However once you start debating he will twist your words and then ignore your questions which he cant answer.
The best way to deal with him is to ignore him. If you dont engage him, he will just go away :tongue3:

Shanti,
To make things clear, do you or do you not support the occupation of West Bank and Gaza ?

Allahu Akbar Mujahid,

You said that you are an Indian. So I’m preplexed as to why you are more exercised about Palestine than Pakistan’s occupation of a part of Kashmir, and the ethnic cleansing of Hindus out of the Kashmir valley.

You said that you are not a Muslim either. Though I don’t see why Indian muslims have to get more worked about Palestine than what is happenign in Kashmir, at least you being a Muslim would have made your stand partly understandable, given that many non-Arab, non-Palestinian Muslims are beating their breasts about events in Palestine. (Probably all thise fiery speeches by mullahs in mosques I guess.)

So, to repeat, what gives?

Cheers

RR,
I am not a Muslim. I dont follow Islam. I do however come from an Indian Muslim family. I am sure for your ‘Brothers in Hinduvta’ that would be enough to kill me if I was unfortunate enough to be in India during one of its state sponsored mini-pogroms of Indian minorities.
I am very critical of the ethnic cleansing of Pandits in Indian controlled Kashmir. I have unequivocally condemned the cleansing of Pandits from the Kashmir valley.
Btw last I checked no one was asking for independence in parts of Kashmir controlled by Pakistan.

Btw last I checked no one was asking for independence in parts of Kashmir controlled by Pakistan.

Al Mujahid… you do realize what that means, don’t you?!

For Shanti:

“How is killing Iraqi children going to hurt America? ”

Shanti what America is doing is putting Iraqis against Iraqi. That is how it tries to win this election by reducing its casualities. It is training Iraqis to fight against insurgents. So insurgents warn the fellow iraqis that if they support oppressors they will be dealt with treason.

If you want to know how US had treated its citizens with treason read history books.

When somebody thinks that they defend their country and see fellow citizens join armies to fight against that it is called treason. In US, for treason they have death penalty.

I will ask one question. When Britishers were occupying India they did with the help of Indians. We all know that. Dont you ever think that if those Indians were punished or killed at that time we would not have been under Britishers for so long?

So Shanti dont try to preach how other side should fight. I dont have any problem with any country going to war. In the war it should not try to skew the “war rules” based on its advantage. And cant claim moral superiority based on those “war rules”.

Shanti if you try to threaten unarmed person with knife, he might try to fight back with his teeth. You cant charge him with hannibalism. And you cant claim moral superiority.

So Iraqi insurgents scare the fellow Iraqis who try to align with US. If they are successful in that then US casualities will mount and they have to leave. That is what their tactics is.

For RR:
Read my last posting. In Japanese bombing not only soldiers died. People and kids died.
In war people die. West tries to preach war is good by sanitising the news. But the truth is people die.
Now you can see all kinds of statistics about how many US soldiers died in Iraq. Did you ever see how many Iraqi civilians died in any US news outlet?
And about war crimes, did you watch last debate? Bush categorily rejected the international criminal court for prosecuting US soldiers. So buddy there is no international laws which US accepts, which can be enforced. And read about how international laws contradicts the sovereignty. Also read about Rumsfeld views about Geneva convention on US tactics.

So insurgents warn the fellow iraqis that if they support oppressors they will be dealt with treason.

Chok… this warning is in the form of 35 children blown apart by the car bombs?

Sameer I do realize what it means, but the better question is ……….Do you ?

Al Mujahid… as a matter of fact, I don’t really know what that means. Care to enlighten?

Allahu Akbar Choka Mukta,

In Japanese bombing not only soldiers died. People and kids died.

So?

Americans were no less barabaric: they nuked Japan and killed thousands of non-combatants. Barbarian invaders from the Hindu Kush (literally, “the slaughter of Hindus”) massacred Indians — who had elaborate rules of war and made it a point not to harm innocents — and carted off many as slaves.

But civilization has advanced since then, and the expectation today is that nations and people behave not like terrorists but like civilized entities. And the fact is that it is terrorist slimeballs who are SPECIFICALLY targetting not just non-combatants but children; raping and killing them. America needs to be held accountable for many historical crimes, but in the current round it is not the party deliberately targeting kids, and, as Naipaul put it, “exulting” in their death. It is the terrorist scum who are on purpose targeting innocents.

Did you ever see how many Iraqi civilians died in any US news outlet?

I see them everyday. 10000. 40000. 50000. Big, big figures. How do they compile these numbers, any idea, Choka Mukta?

Shanti what America is doing is putting Iraqis against Iraqi

Now supposing this weirdo theory is true, it still counts as strategy, not terrorism. The fault lies with the Iraqis who are willing to be put against other Iraqis.

America does it to us Indians too. It got an Indian leftwing lunatic to depose against Gujarat government in an American kangaroo court of sorts. There is sustained propaganda by the State department’s committee on “religious freedom” against Gujarat and Indian governments. See, America is pitting Indians against Indians, but I think the real problem is the Indians — the said leftwing lunatic etc - who are collaborating with America.

Dont you ever think that if those Indians were punished or killed at that time we would not have been under Britishers for so long?

So what do you think should we do with those “Kashmiris” who are openly hand-in-glove with Pakis?

Cheers,
RR

The simley above is inadertant.

“Hindu Kush” means “slaughter of Hindus”, and there is no joke about it.

Ah – Islamic rage. The phenomenon whereby any atrocity (blowing up kids, beheading relief workers, shooting voter registration workers) can be forgiven. Ariel Sharon takes a walk near a mosque – launch an intifada. A bunch of medievalists believe the US stands in their way of re-establishing a caliphate – slaughter 3000 Americans. When you can’t strike the Americans – kill 200 Australians in Bali. When you can’t get them – kill 300 Spainairds. When a newspaper columnist in Nigeria makes joke about Mohammed marrying a beauty queen – riot in the streets. Depose the most tyrannical of regimes in the Middle East – kill the Iraqis trying to establish some form of consensual government. Only in the Arab world is putting a bag over a prisoner’s head the same as removing that head.

As for the occupation – why was there no demand for a Palestinian state before 1967? Why is it that Palestinians get kicked out of almost every Arab country? And if occupation is so objectionable to the proud Muslims – why no objection to the occupation of Lebanon by the Syrians?

Now, for those who believe such extremist acts are against Islam – well, let’s look at all the minorities that prospered under Muslim rule – Persian Jews, Persian Zorastrians, ancient Babylon, Coptic Christians. And the Indians on this board are familiar with the mercy of men like Ghauri and Augerenzeb.

And killing children should not come as too much of a surprise – after all, how old was Ayesha when Mohammed popped her cherry?

Chok, there is a reason why I respond to Mujahid but have decided you are not worth wasting my time on. Listen and learn. There is usually a topic of discussion and trying to hijack it will not get you any responses. The topic of this post is Arundhati Roy and her support for murderes who kill children and behead people. She has a history as Ashish pointed out of supporting such violence - she supported the Taliban for God’s sake. It is ridiculous of you to make an argument that it is OK for “insurgents” to murder Iraqi kids because US is occupying Iraq. Criticize the US all you want, but your whole argument falls apart when you refuse to see the wrong of the so-called resistance.

Also naive is your pretension of the terrorists to be Iraqis - most of them are foreign fighters who only care about fighting the West and you are fooling yourself if you believe otherwise. Don’t even try to compare this to Indian freedom struggle where non-violent protestors bore beatings and spent years in jail to succeed - they didn’t blow up innocent Indian kids to teach the British people a lesson.

KXB,
Your ignorance is astonishing to say the least “why was there no demand for a Palestinian state before 1967?”. Please PROMISE ME that you will never make another public post on Israel-Palestine conflict till you read up a little on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Sameer,
My point was that Kashmiris in the parts of Kashmir controlled by Pakistan do not believe that they are occupied and are not asking for independence.

Al Mujahid:

Before 1967, the “Occupied Territories” were occupied by Arab armies, mostly Jordanians. They were living in the region that was set aside under the Balfour Declaration which separated Palestine into two countries. It was only after 1967, that Arabs switched their diplomatic posture from wiping Israel off the map to demanding a two-state solution. Of course, their actions do not match their words.

Interesting how Muslims view a partition as a crime in one country, but as a proper solution in another. From 1947-67, Palestinians could have gone about the business of setting up a nation, instead of using that territory to launch attacks into Israel. Even now, there are more Palestinians living in Jordan than the native Hashemites – why does Jordan not grant their Palestinians the right to vote? I guess oppressing Muslims only is a problem when it is being done by non-Muslims.

Interesting that out of everything I listed – this is the one thing you objected to. I can understand if such events form an uncomfortable truth – but it is not my job, or that of America – to make Muslims comfortable. They are free to worship and live their lives as they see fit, so long as they leave me, my family, and my nation alone. To borrow the old Chicago saying, “If he brings a knife, you bring a gun. If he sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue.”

Shanti
When you say Roy supports the insurgents (interview on or before 15 Sep 2004) and you pick some news item( happened on Sep 30th 2004) which says 35 children got killed by insurgents then you are implying Roy supports that killing of 35 children. That is misrepresentation correct?
My argument is if you say Roy’s support of insurgents implies her support of 35 children killed means your support of US forces should imply your support of Iraqi civilians killed by US forces correct?

Your rendition of history is incredible to say the least. The Balfour Declaration paved the way for Jewish Immigration and not for the Partition of Palestine.
The partition of Palestine was in accordance to the UN Partition plan in the 40’s according to which 50% of modern day Israel (not west bank and gaza) was to be ‘Palestine’ solely controlled by Palestinians and the remaining 50% to be shared by the Jews and the Palestinians equally. This was in accordance to the respective Palestinian and Jewish populations of 75% and 25% respectively.
The Palestinians rejected the partition of Palestine and the Israelis in turn declared independence on the whole of Palestine.
The Palestinian Nationalist struggle started in the early 50’s by Christian Palestinians and Syrians as an offshoot of the larger Arab movement and later by the then secularist socialist PLO. It was only in the 80’s that the Palestine struggle was taken over by Hamas and Islamic Jihad.
There’s widespread support for Palestine in European and 3rd world countries. Its not a Muslim issue exclusively. It seems to me that you have a lot of animus towards Muslims. I suggest you take some therapy before you end up hurting some poor Muslim or yourself.

The point dear Mujahid is that the creation of the state of Israel did not automatically lead to the Palestinians living in refugee camps. You seem to overlook that several Arab armies invaded Israel the moment it came into being, and then the Palestinians were kicked out. You also overlook that Israel itself as a sizable Arab population (almost 1/6 the population and growing – I guess birth control is not halal), that enjoys citizenship and voting rights. Interesting that an Arab can vote in Israel but not in Arafat’s PA. If an Israeli Arab is mistreated by the police, he has a free judiciary and free press to turn to. No such luck in Arafat-ville.

Do I hold a personal animus towards Muslim – hardly. It would be more accurate to say that I don’t hold them in very high regard. It’s hardly an isolated position – even your beloved Europeans are balking at incorporating Turkey into the EU, and are reconsidering their immigration policies.

And their constant whining is tiresome. The Arabs get to have over 20 countries (plus a whole bunch of non-Arab Muslim nations which do not practice good global citizenship), but God forbid the Jews get one.

So you are suggesting two things -
If the Arab armies had not invaded Israelis wont have kicked out the Palestinians……. So what do you suggest the Palestinians and Arab armies should have done ? Stay back, relax and let the West carve up Palestine ?

KXB,
What do you suggest should happen to the 4 million Palestinians living in West Bank and Gaza ? Will Israel make them citizens of Israel like the million or so Arabs living in Israel ? Should they all pack their bags and leave for Jordan, Syria and Egypt ? Should they continue to live under the occupation ? Let me hear your solution to the Palestinians living in West Bank and Gaza…..

India was carved up. Korea was carved up. Germany was carved up. What’s your point? Why should it matter to Egyptians, Saudis, and Jordanians what happens in a territory that is not theirs? When nationalist Chinese were chased out of Communist China - they set up thriving communities in Taiwan and Hong Kong. They did not sit around and whine about their predicament. Hell, bin Laden whines about how the Muslims lost Spain back in the Middle Ages, and has some of the highest poll numbers in the Muslim world. It seems that whining is a national pastime in Koranic circles.

Clinton worked out a solution back in 2000, and Arafat walked away. He did not even come back with a counter-offer. For the past 30 years, we have seen different American presidents, and different Israeli Prime Ministers, but only one Arafat. How much effort do you put in to solve a problem when one party, or in this case one man, is not going to meet you half-way? Even now, Sharon is going to get Jews out of Gaza, over the objections of Jewish hardliners, and he’s being criticized by Arabs for that too.

By that logic why do you keep whining about the Kashmiri Pandits ?

Shanti
I have a question to you what was the purpose of US war on Iraq?
In Mar 15 2003 you provided a link which gives a FAQ on this war. In that they say

“8) If we’re going to war with Iraq for humanitarian reasons, why aren’t we going to war with other nations that also abuse their people?
We’re not going to Iraq to liberate the Iraqis and help them build a Democracy any more than we went to Japan in WW2 to free the Japanese from their Emperor. While freeing the Iraqi people is certainly a noble thing to do, it’s a secondary benefit of the invasion, not the primary purpose of it. ”

So if that was the reason then this war is a mistake.
So Shanti, you support a mistake and if somebody opposes that mistake you do verbal attack.
Dont be emotional about how good is US. I also live here and I also know US is a great country. That doesnt mean all things from US is great. This war is a mistake and Bush doesnt tries to acknowledge that and guys like you still doesnt want to see the reason behind that.

That was the clumsiest attempt to change the topic, Mujahid. You’re usually sharper than that. Where in this thread have I mentioned the Kashmiri Pandits? But since you brought it up - please list the atrocities that the Pandits carried out against their Muslim neighbors. Please name the terrorist groups that are carrying out violent acts against Muslim Kashmiris. Where is their version of Jaish-E-Mohammed and Lashkar-e-Toiba? Even the Indian Army (which has carried out human rights abuses) has not resettled the Pandits into their homes. And if conditions are so horrendous for the Muslims in Kashmir, why is there no mass exodus into Pakistan, comparable to the 10 million Bengalis who fled into India in 1971? The Pakistani army killed more Muslims in 1971 than the Indian army has in 15 years of unrest in Kashmir.

Even if I did go on and on about the Pandits – it cause they do not have an ummah to carry their cause. Do you see their plight written anywhere outside of India? Is their plight taken up by the EU, or discussed among the hemp-crowds of Berkeley and Cambridge?

Besides, native Kashmiris have long been pushed aside in the terrorist groups. Militancy in Kashmir is less about self-governance than a quick way to make a buck. I refer you to this piece by Jessica Stern (oh no, a Jew!) published in Foreign Affairs back in 2000. Her independent research backed up what Indians have been saying for years – that foreign mercenaries are making up more and more of the “freedom fighters”

Pakistan’s Jihad Culture
http://ksghome.harvard.edu/~jstern/pakistan.htm

You should not be lecturing me on making wrong analogies.
You made a silly analogy of comparing the plight of Koreans and East Germans to the Palestinians living in West Bank and Gaza.
The Koreans in North Korea are not living under occupation. The Taiwanese in Taiwan are not living under occupation.
No one disputes the fact that the Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza are living under a belligerent military occupation where their land is being systematically taken away every day with new Israeli settlements. You however equate living under occupation in West Bank to living in Taiwan.
I did not claim that ‘you’ alone whine about Kashmiri Pandits. You have a whole country to do that. I actually dont have a problem with people who whine about the Kashmiri Pandits as I believe that a wrong has been done.
You on the other hand equate the plight of Palestinians in West Bank to the ‘plight’ of the North Koreans and the Taiwanese who are ‘according to you’ living under similar foreign occupations like the Palestinians are.
Also is it possible for you to debate here without berating Muslims/Islam in general. Am I berating Christianity or Judaism in my comments to you ?
We here are debating Palestine and not the merits of Islam. You sound like a rabid Hinduvta type which is very typical of Hindu ABCD’S like you.

Wow, a veritable Whitman’s Sampler of poor arguments and weak analogies. I guess Forest Gump was right – you never know what you’re going to get. So, let’s go one piece at atime.
“You should not be lecturing me on making wrong analogies.
You made a silly analogy of comparing the plight of Koreans and East Germans to the Palestinians living in West Bank and Gaza.
The Koreans in North Korea are not living under occupation. The Taiwanese in Taiwan are not living under occupation. No one disputes the fact that the Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza are living under a belligerent military occupation where their land is being systematically taken away every day with new Israeli settlements. You however equate living under occupation in West Bank to living in Taiwan.”

North Koreans not living under occupation? So I guess if a busload of North Koreans approached the DMZ, they would be waived through by the Pyongyang regime? North Koreans have the right to property, earning a living, freedom from random search and seizure? And I guess yhat whole famine during the 90s was just a Western media conspiracy exagerration.

If you bothered to read my post carefully – you will see I use Korea as an example because of South Korea – which suffered 2 million dead in the Korean War, and went through far more serious hardship than the Palestinians. South Korea managed to pull itself together and make one of the largest economies in the world. They South Koreans did not sit around feeling sorry for themselves, and believe that the world owes them a favor.

The Taiwanese do not live under occupation, but like the Palestinians they were also chased out of their native land. But instead of blowing up buses and cafes in Shanghai and Beijing, they made Taiwan into an economic powerhouse. But even Taiwan moved from a military regime to being a vibrant competitive democracy. If the Taiwanese can make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear, why not the not the enterprising people of Palestine. Or is that an ancient Chinese secret?

”I did not claim that ‘you’ alone whine about Kashmiri Pandits. You have a whole country to do that. I actually dont have a problem with people who whine about the Kashmiri Pandits as I believe that a wrong has been done.”

Whew – you believe a wrong has been done. Well, that will come as a relief to Pandit families living in squalor in a Jammu refugee camp.


”You on the other hand equate the plight of Palestinians in West Bank to the ‘plight’ of the North Koreans and the Taiwanese who are ‘according to you’ living under similar foreign occupations like the Palestinians are.”

How many Arabs have been killed by the Israeli military since 1967? And how many Arabs were killed by the Syrian army in Hama in 1982? Over 20,000. How many Iranians, Kurds, and Kuwaitis killed by Saddam? Have we seen pictures of those mass graves? No – but a naked Iraqi prisoner is broadcast ad naseum throughout the Middle East. The fact is – the most dangerous place for a Muslim to live is in the Middle East is in a Muslim-run government.

”Also is it possible for you to debate here without berating Muslims/Islam in general. Am I berating Christianity or Judaism in my comments to you ? We here are debating Palestine and not the merits of Islam.”

No, we started out debating the Iraq war. Then you switched it to debating Fox News. And then you switched to Palestine. The fact is, Muslims are rallying around Palestinians not cause they suffer under an unrepresentative government (that would all Arab governments), but because it is a Muslim suffering under a Jewish government. Arab Muslims don’t care about Kashmiri Muslims, Thai Muslims, or Filipino Muslims – groups we are told are also suffering. But to suffer under a Jew? And in their own backyard? As for berating Islam, is my asking what age Ayesha was when Mohammed consumated their marriage “berating Islam”?


“You sound like a rabid Hinduvta type which is very typical of Hindu ABCD’S like you.”

I’ll have to keep that in mind the next time my mom complains of how I have not gone to Durga Puja in three years. Or I’ll mull it over next time I pull up a chair at one of Chicago’s many fine steak houses for a Kansas City strip, cooked medium-well.

KXB,
Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are living under a foreign occupation. What part of that do you not understand. Taiwan and South Korea have become success stories but they are not living under an occupation. No foreign goverment has built and taken over 40% of their land inside South Korea and Taiwan. When the South Koreans and Taiwanese kids go to school, they dont have to go through 4 checkpoints everymorning guarded by a hostile foreign army. They dont have foreign tanks on their streets. They can control their state affairs. The Palestinians in West Bank have no control over anything. The Israelis control everything. They dont even have passports.
You know after arguing with you, I get the impression that you are just not aware of the ‘status’ and ground realities in West Bank and Gaza.
Surely you dont believe that West Bank and Gaza are sovereign entities like South Korea and Taiwan. If you do believe that, then let me know categorically that you believe that.
I dont think you are a devout Hindu. I dont believe you are a man of religion anyway. You are just Anti Muslim like the Hinduvta types in India.

Mujahid, do poor people become suicide bombers or do people become poor when they engage in suicide bombing? What is the cause and what is the effect? This, according to the International Herals Tribune -

The number of Palestinians who worked daily in Israel before the intifada was more than 150,000; the figure now is fewer than 35,000.

Of the 2.2 million Palestinians on the West Bank, 50 percent now live below the poverty line, compared with 22 percent in 2001. The figure is now 68 percent in teeming Gaza, which has 1.3 million people.

The percentage of Palestinians with savings declined from 70 percent to 13 percent.

Before the second intifada, $500 million a year was provided in aid; the average annual figure for the past four years is more than $1 billion, about $310 a person, the highest per capita rate in the world.

Looks like the “occupied people” were doing quite well and getting paid real good before they decided to go around blowing up little kids in a tantrum because Sharon walked on Temple Mount.

Chok, if you bothered to read my Iraq-related posts closely you will see that I supported US in their war against Saddam because I thought he had to be deposed for the good of the Iraqis - not the other way around. I would have supported this war if it were Germany or France waging it instead of the US and even if the US were against it.

Foreign occupation alone does not explain the Palestinians lack of development. As Shanti points out, Palestinians receive huge amounts of aid, most of which is probably siphoned off the accounts in Switzerland. If in that period from 1947-67 the Palestinians went about the business of building a nation, instead of nursing a grievance, they might have been better off. The world community does not owe them a country - does the world really need another underdeveloped, authoritarian Arab nation?

As for being anti-Islam, I suppose not much I will be able to do that would get you to change your mind, aside from converting. But you did not really address any of the historical instances I cited where the introduction of Islam led to the dissolution of the indigenous culture. While I am not religious, I have always been fascinated by religions as systems of belief and social organization. As a non-practiing Hindu, I can visit Judaism’s Wailing Wall, the ancient Buddhist temples of SE Asia, a Confucian monestary in China, the Vatican - but I cannot enter Mecca, the origin of that most tolerant of faiths. Islam, like other religions, can be beneficial. But Muslims need to clean their own house first, instead of constantly hectoring the rest of the world to accomodate their backwardness.

KXB and strangely enough Shanti. I never claimed any correlation between suicide bombings and poverty so I am not sure why you both are suggesting that I somehow argued that point.
KXB, you believe that the world ‘does not need another authoritarian state’. So whats your solution ? The Palestinians should continue living under occupation in West Bank and Gaza while Israel continues to build settlements till they reduce to the status of the blacks in South Africa in the apartheid era.
Shanti, you put occupied in parenthesis. Are you not sure about whether they are occupied or not. Its ok if you and KXB believe that they are not occupied. This view was mainstream among 18th century European colonisers who wanted to civilize the Arabs and other 3rd world people. Israelis are just carrying forward the mantle of this proud Western strategy.
KXB, I dont believe Islam or for that matter any Abrahamic faith is very tolerant. Pagan religions are way more tolerant of people of other faiths than the Abrahamic faiths. All Abrahamic faiths have the my way or highway attitude and thus are not very tolerant. So I will not dispute your Mecca example or for that matter other examples of intolerance in Islam.

Mujahid, you said that South Korea and Taiwan became success stories because they were not living under occupation - that was why I was pointing out that Palestinians were ont heir way to reasonable success before they threw it away for the intifada. They cannot blame Israel for their problems, when they seemed to be doing pretty well under the same occupation before they started on the current murderous path.

So you believe Pre-Intifada per capita income of $680 (half of which was foreign aid) is an example of the Palestinian march to ‘success’ and ‘doing pretty well’.
Another success story is Pakistan then with comparable levels of per capita income
:tongue3:
I think Israel needs to end the occupation of West Bank and Gaza or include them as a part of greater Israel. No one can and should deny people the right to self determination. Look at what the Israelis are doing. They will not include West Bank and Gaza in Israel because they want to preserve a Jewish democracy and not a secular democracy. Well if the people of Israel want a Jewish majority Democracy I am fine with that. So then they should just let go of West Bank and Gaza.
Since 1967, Israel has settled 600,000 people in secured settlements. Every settlement means countless misery on the Palestinian villagers, farmers and townships all around the settlement. Roads are cut, houses are demolished, checkpoints are set up. This land grab has to end if Israel does not want to include West Bank as a part of Israel. You cannot hold people under the military rule forever.
On the flip side I dont think Hamas is helping the Palestinian cause by indiscriminate killings of civilians. Its wrong and counter productive. I guess they try non violence or something else, because indiscriminate killings is definitely not working. During the first intifada they battled the Israelis with bricks and stones. The death ratio at the end of the intifada was 1 Israeli for every 135 Palestinians. That got them international public sympathy but it didnt translate into an Israeli withdrawl. Infact the rate of settlements went up after the first intifada. They lost even more land and had to share among Palestinians even fewer resources. For example in Nablus theres one Israeli settlement of 8500 people and there are 135,000 Palestinians around it. However 95% of the land and water are used for that one settlement. Roads are cut, majority of the farmers were uprooted to make way for the settlement and the Palestinian villages around the settlement is full of roadblocks and checkpoints where going to a different street can take anywhere from 2-3 hours. I cannot imagine how it would be to live in that small city surrounded by Israeli tanks and where I would go through 7 checkpoints when I go to buy groceries. I guess I am glad I am not a Palestinian born under Israeli occupation in West Bank. They dont have any easy choices.

My solution is one state. Thats the only viable solution. The Israelis are never going to give up the West Bank. The Palestinians will not accept a West Bank with 17 little Israel’s inside the West Bank and the West Bank cut by 7 major highways to secure the Israeli settlements ( This was the plan Clinton offered and Arafat rejected)
So the choice is between a (1) continued military occupation of West Bank and withdrawl from half of Gaza settlements (2) complete ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from West Bank (3) or a one state solution or (4) Israeli withdrawl from West Bank with dozens of Palestinian enclaves surrounding Israeli settlements and partial autonomy or (5) Israel withdraws completely from West Bank and Gaza and East Jerusalem while Palestinians set up their country in West Bank and Gaza and forgo the right of the Palestinian refugees to return to Israel. I prefer the last one and so do all reasonable people but I dont think its going to happen.

On a more interesting note, can anyone explain to me why are the Iraqis getting madder at the US for every terrorist bombing ? I understand some of it has to do with the fact that they are upset at the Americans for not providing security, but it doesnt make sense that they are mad at the US because the terrorists are blowing up Iraqis.
Also according to CENTCOM the insurgency has now grown to 25,000 from last year’s number of 5,000.
Anybody else think its time for the US to withdraw !

Mujahid, personally I prefer solution 5 too but I think the Palestinian leadership has to change for any such thing to happen. I think this will not happen in Arafat’s life time. I think Arafat’s death will benefit the Palestinian cause more than anything else.

Yes Mujahid, US did a mistake in Iraq as it did in Vietnam. US cant claim moral superiority and try to preach and impose things on other countries. US claim for war is WMD. If Bush said he is going to liberate and it is the only reason US conservatives would have opposed it and there would not have been any war. So he sold using WMD.

If Iraqis are suppressed by Sadaam they have to find a way to fight it as Indians did under britishers. According to Musharraf Kashmiris are fighting for their freedom and so he supports them. Will we buy that argument? Then how can you claim that all the Iraqis should buy US argument that it is for freedom. Sunni, Shia & Kurd problems are too complex for an American to understand. They should not have tried to enter into this mess.

The problem of interfering in somebody else problem is that we cant stay there forever to solve their problems. When Americans quote that they sold Freedom and democracy to German and Japanese after WWII, those situation is totally different from ethnic conflict. Iraq has multi ethinic people who fights between them forever. Does germany and Japan has such a complex ethinic clash before America enter there?

So Shanti before entering into somebody else problem think whether we can solve it or we will aggravate it. If Iraq enters into civil war who will take responsibility for that?

Mujahid, like I said I don’t udnerstand how blowing up Iraqis is going to help the Iraqi cause. I also think that the US needs to leaev except for a few bases as soon as possible. By ASAP, I mean as soon as there is a sizeable Iraqi army and police force capable of taking care of its own. Any withdrawal before that will only cause more chaos in the country and will embolden the perception that America doesn’t have the will to stand up and fight when things seem bleak.

But why froth at the mouth ad nauseam about the US, Choka Mukta, as if Iraq is next door to Bangalore? Seems like you are overflowing with love and affection for Chechens, Iraqis and Palestinians, even as terrorists are exploding bombs all over India and killing and maiming Indians. I am terribly, terribly impressed with your willingness to take up the world’s troubles as your own, but charity begins at home, ya know.

Cheers,
RR

RR, I dont think India is like Chechnya, Palestian or Iraq under saddam. I think we are a democracy and we have rule of law inspite of corruption and stupid politicians. We cant compare ourself with Pakistan. It is degrading ourself. We should try to become like US minus its foreign policy and some of its hypocritical ideas.

And I dont think we are suppressing muslims in India. I can justify Iraq insurgents because it is a armed conflict either side. But I cant do that for Godhra or its after math. So dont expect me to support violence within India.

India doesnt take arms against any country and it doesnt want to attack anybody preemptively. So anybody tries to attack us (using terrorism as blanket) we need to use reason and patience to solve the issue rather than attacking whoever our intelligence agencies or our emotion says responsible.

Chok,
In singing your paeans about mother India’s penchant for never interfering or attacking, you seem to have conveniently forgotten about the farcically named IPKF aka paid mercenaries which India sent to Sri Lanka to add muscle to their genocidal campaign against the Tamils.

Whoa comrade Choka Mukta, it seems that your logic is no different from that of slimy, slithery US:

So anybody tries to attack us (using terrorism as blanket) we need to use reason and patience to solve the issue rather than attacking

Guess what. That is precisely what the US says too, that India must keep exercising “patience”, and must have a “dialogue” with Pakistan.

So after all, when it comes to nailing Pakistan, you are on the same side as the US. That when you allegedy are an INDIAN and Pakistani terrorism is hurting INDIA. But if anybody here is seen to be on the side of the US in the Iraq issue, eventhough India has no particluar stake in that conflict, you begin to froth at the mouth.

And to top it all, you actually call folks here “hypocrites”.

I don’t mean to be vicious, but when you’re gone — definitely after you have lived a full, happy and fruitful life — hope they will preserve your remains so that curious onlookers can come to the museum and gaze at you.

Cheers,
RR

the farcically named IPKF aka paid mercenaries which India sent to Sri Lanka to add muscle to their genocidal campaign against the Tamils.

Allahu Akbar Mujahid,

When you have internalized jihadi propaganda, you tend to speak the same propagandistic language.

IPKF’s presence was welcomed both by Sri Lanka and the terrorists. Later on, peace was sabotaged both by the Sri Lankan government and the terrorists. So much so that having gone there with the confidence of both parties, the IPKF ended up fighting the terroists and asked by the Sri Lankan govt to leave.

The LTTE terrorist gang were only a tad better than the jihadis in that they were definitely “secular”, and not the least bit religious lunatics. No houris and stuff.

RR,
Your rendition of history is charmingly naive much like your half baked arguments here.
IPKF was an attempt by Rajiv (When a tree falls, the earth shakes) Gandhi after triumphantly presiding over a pogrom on yet another minority (Sikhs) in Delhi, to prove to the World that even the eternally servient India could flex its infant muscles in the area . This muscular ill fated policy met a predictable but sad end when the incompetent IPKF hoodlums after ravaging the civilian Tamil population initially were forced to retreat after a string of humiliating defeats at the hands of the LTTE.

Mujahid, I think Rajiv sent the troops based on both side support. After going there it was mess and we pulled it back.
That is what I’m saying. If somebody enter into somebody else problem can they be there forever? They cant so better keep out of that. According to me that should be the rule for India and that is for US also. So IPKF was a mistake. We have the right to ban LTTE in our land. But we cant send troops to fight them in Srilanka. Ironically Indira did give training to LTTE in early eighties. That was wrong. And we paid the price for that.

RR, I have problem with US is because it preaches talks for India and war for its own problems. So I say they are hypocrites.

RR, I have problem with US is because it preaches talks for India and war for its own problems. So I say they are hypocrites.

Abolsutely, they are hypocrites.

But you are preaching precisely what those hypocrites are preaching when it comes to India-Pak, Choka Moraluddin Mukta. And that is the point. I mean, look at the irony: you have no problem with the terrorist scum engaging in what you justify as “war”, ie, killing children etc, but you have a problem with the Indian government waging a legitimate war to rid itself of the terrorist problem! Even the US is not that hypocritical, Khanna Sudhakar Mukta Choka Deal With It Ugly Things Do Happen Nair.

Cheers,
RR

Your rendition of history is charmingly naive

Charmed to have charmed you miyan.

This muscular ill fated policy met a predictable but sad end when the incompetent IPKF hoodlums after ravaging the civilian Tamil population

Charming.

The Pakis run “dalit” websites. Eg: “Dalitstan.com” which is in collaboration with “mughalstan.com” etc. Are they running “Elam” websites too these days? If so, send your non-naive idea of truth on IPKF hoodlums: they will prominently feature it on homepage.

Cheers,
RR

rr,
Your usual polemic responses are now getting more comedic.
I think your maniacal obsession with ‘pakis’ has taken over your mental faculties and you now retort with ‘dalistan.com’ and ‘mughalstan.com’ instead of substantive replies.

Salaam alekum warrior,

I think your maniacal obsession with ‘pakis’

Correction: Paki terrorism. When Indians are being blown up all over by the Paki terrorists, every Indian should be “obsessed” with the matter. Problem?

It would border on lunacy, though, for Indians to be maniacally obsessed about the US, like the child-killing jiahdis are.

Cheers,
RR

I dont have a problem with the manic obsession of the Hinduvta Brigade with Pakistan.
Its a matter between the H brigade and their respective shrinks.
However when practitioners of this mania let their obsession cloud their better judg(e)ment, it becomes hard for the still ‘sane’ ones to continue a discussion.
Btw, I presume you are not referring to me when you lament the ‘maniacal obsession’ with the US of some Indians.

“you have no problem with the terrorist scum engaging in what you justify as “war”, ie, killing children etc, but you have a problem with the Indian government waging a legitimate war to rid itself of the terrorist problem!”

RR, there is a difference between defence and offence. I dont want Indian government to act irresponsibly as US govt does. If Indian govt start the offence then it will be blood shed. As I said if a bigger power tries to corner a smaller power then smaller power will use all stupid means to fight back. If I’m left with nothing I will tend to destroy everything. That is the rule of fighting.

Also in case of Iraq I support the insurgents as US went into their land and fight. But in case of India, Indian government should not intimidate its population then the citizens, whoever it is Hindu or muslim they have the right to fight back and then it will be blood shed all over the place.

I dont take moral superiority. If you take arms then expect your enemy to take arms in whatever manner he thinks is right. Dont preach your right to him.

I dont want my government to take arms as it will not solve anything. If we want to wage a war against Pakistan what is our solution? What is the exit strategy? Without this US entered into Iraq and it is in a mess. Do we need such a mess? Or we will fight back with our economic might and eventually pakistan will want our money rather than our hatred? Think about a situation where we have so much of money we can invest in Kashmir with unlimited budget. If that occurs who will kashmiris choose? India or Pakistan?

Sorry for making my comments and running, as it were. But I’ve got a few other preoccupations just now, from which I took a break to skim through this most recent exchange here…

> Well, that will come as a relief to Pandit families
> living in squalor in a Jammu refugee camp.

I keep hearing statements like this from all kinds of people, and I wonder, how many of them have actually visited one of those Jammu refugee camps? (Or in Delhi). Not that you won’t find squalor. What I’m getting at is, how much of this impression is hearsay and how much from personal experience visiting those camps?

Yes, I’ve visited the camps, both in Jammu and Delhi. Opened my eyes, but to much more than squalor. Which is the point.

> As a non-practiing Hindu, I can visit Judaism’s
> Wailing Wall, the ancient Buddhist temples of SE
> Asia, a Confucian monestary in China, the Vatican
> - but I cannot enter Mecca, the origin of that most
> tolerant of faiths.

True enough.

As practicing Hindus, my wife, my mother, my ma-in-law, my sisters-in-law and others can visit Judaism’s Wailing Wall, the Vatican, and both the Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa, right above the Wailing Wall. And in fact, different subsets of those afore-mentioned women have, at different times, visited one or another of those places.

But as practicing Hindu women, there’s a Hindu temple right here on Malabar Hill in Bombay that they cannot enter at certain times. (There is actually a sign to that effect in that temple). In fact, if they happen to be between the ages of 10 and 50, they cannot set foot in the hill temple at Sabarimala in Kerala.

No religion has a monopoly on absurd intolerance. No religion has a monopoly on virtue.

so long,
dilip d’souza.

Lalahoos comrade Choka Mukta,

Not only are you speaking the language of that hypocrite, the US, when it comes to India-Pakistan stand-off, but you are even exhibiting a proclivity like that hypocrite, the US, to lecture the decent party. I mean, why not try preaching to the child-killing jihadi scum to stop the killing and start adopting Dalai Lama’s methods, eh? But just as that hypocrite, the US, wants to reserve aggression for itself and preaches patience to others, you want to ensure that the Paki jihadis remain killers and India remains ‘patient’.

Supposing the Hamas gang, instead of killing poeple, started working for the betterment of Palestine. Supposing they developed Palestine into a fine nation economically stronger than and scientifically more advanced than Israel. What do you think will happen? Gaza Strip and West Bank will want to secede from Israel and join Palestine! Won’t that be wonderful, Choka Mukta Nair Sudhakar Deal With It Khanna? But what’s happening now? It is only bloodshed. Do you think Israel is chicken? Do you think the Jihadi scum will be able to bend Israel by killing their children? No way. Israel will continue to retaliate, and Israel will continue to eliminate the terrorists. More bloodshed. So what is the solution? The Jihadi killers should stop killing. They should shock the world by becoming human beings. This is the word you can spread thru your lecturing.

s I said if a bigger power tries to corner a smaller power then smaller power will use all stupid means to fight back.

But that being the smaller power is not stopping it from harassing the bigger power, you see? If a nasty, spoilt kid keeps kicking you in the ass, you’ll grin, bear it, dust your bottom, and then get ready to receive the next kick, is it?

If you take arms then expect your enemy to take arms in whatever manner he thinks is right. Dont preach your right to him.

Of course, of course. Nobody is preaching here, except your pompous self.

Read closely what you wrote. Pakistan IS taking arms against India.. Then India has the right to react in whichever manner it thinks fit. By your own philosophy. But guess what. You wanna preach. To India. That’s why I said that someday in the future you can help a museum do some roaring business.

it will be blood shed all over the place

Hello, moraluddin. Wake up and sniff something strong. It IS bloodshed all over the place as we speak. Nary a day passes by without Indians being murdered by Paki-sponsored jihadis.

Anyway, the point of it all is that you are much like that hypocritical entity that you have built up a lot of bile over: the US. But for the Smithsonian being located in the US, it could have been the place to showcase you to posterity.

Cheers,
RR

Salaam Alekum Warroir bro,

I dont have a problem with the manic obsession of the Hinduvta Brigade with Pakistan.

Excuse me, the Paki jihadi brigade seem to have brainwashed you that only those you who deem “hindutva brigade” are killed by the Paki jihadis. That is not true: the overwhelming majority of Hindus massacred by the terrorist killers happen to be apolitical Hindus; and the overwhelming majority of Muslims massacred by the Paki killers happen to be staunchly nationalist Indians. India kids have been orphaned, Indian mothers have lost their children, and Indian wives lost their husbands — all because of Paki killers, not American soldiers.

So all Indians who have a searing consceince are “obsessed” by the obscenities that the Paki killers are perpetrating on us. While doubtlessly a lunatic fringe is obsessed with the US.

Cheers,
RR

Where did the ‘Pakis’ kill these nationalistic Indian Muslims ? Refresh my memory about this ‘massacre’ of Indian Muslims by the ‘Pakis’.
I am presuming that these Nationalistic Muslims are not living in Kashmir, where most of the Kashmiri Muslims are anything but nationalistic about India.
I am not sure why you keep bringing up the ‘obsession’ with the US. Go back and read my posts. I am not obsessed with the US. I happen to actually like the US ;)

Allahu Akbar warrior bro,

Where did the ‘Pakis’ kill these nationalistic Indian Muslims ?

Surprised that there are nationalistic Indian Muslims!? You seem to have a lot in common with the hardest core Hindutva types mujahid miyan.

I am presuming that these Nationalistic Muslims are not living in Kashmir, where most of the Kashmiri Muslims are anything but nationalistic about India.

True, we do know, from what they have done to the Pandits, that a good number of the valley’s Sunni muslims are not well-diposed towards India and Hindus. Fact though, warriorji, that given half a chance they will do to Kashmir’s shias, gujjar muslims, Buddhists and Sikhs what they have done to the Hindus.

Official sources said Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) militants struck at Chhata Pani near Surankote in Poonch district last night and shot dead Mohammad Jamal, his wife Bano Bi and son Abdul Ghani, suspecting them to be security forces’ informers. …

In another incident, militants tortured Mohammad Rafiq to death at Mangat in Banihal last night…

Jammu June 22. In a new twist to militancy in the border areas of Jammu it has been alleged that militants are using poisonous injections to kill civilians whom they see as informers. In the last 24 hours, a man and a woman have been killed in this way in Surankote area of Poonch district sending shock waves in the area.

The militants kidnapped the woman from her house at village Dodi in Surankote tehsil and injected a poisonous substance leading to her death. The woman, Rani Begum, is the wife of Chowdhary Abdul Gani, first cousin of the former PCC (I) president, Choudhary Aslam…Firoz Din was also injected to death in Hari area of the same district. Locals said four militants swooped into his house in the early today and injected him with a poison…

Jammu, February 11: They were shocked, but not scared. Instead, they reiterated their resolve to stay put and fight back militants who killed 15 members of three Muslim families at Salohi (Kot Chadwal) in Budhal tehsil of Rajouri district on Saturday morning. The dead include three women and seven children…

Jammu, April 10: Within 72 hours of an attack on civilians in Udhampur district, militants struck again killing five Gujjars including two women and three children in the hilly Doda district of Jammu and Kashmir. Giving details, sources said a group of militants went to the house of Noordin Gujjar at Nagni (Gandoh) on Tuesday night and asked about him. However, as the owner was not at home, militants opened fire killing two women and three children on the spot. Four other people were injured in the shoot-out. …

This is just the tip of te iceberg, warrior miyan. Do a search on the web. Hundreds of pages turn up.

Idiots these Paki jihadis, no? Are they not messing up their houri quota by killing fellow believers?

Cheers,
RR

You have in all your naive wisdom failed to cite me a single incident of ‘massacres’ of NATIONALISTIC Indian Muslims by the ‘Pakis’
Predictably you have cited incidents from J&K. Giving me examples of Kashmiris from J&K as nationalistic Indians doesnt behoove a self-styled guardian of objectivity like you. They are fighting a war to get rid of India’s control while you are still holding on to this fiction of Kashmiris being nationalistic Indians. In this regard you have a lot in common with your brethrens whom you love to loathe in Pakistan who believe that the Kashmiris living in Pakistan Controlled Kashmir (POK) are nationalistic Pakistanis.
Also how do you know that all the above killers were Pakistani citizens. Your source doesnt mention the nationality of the killers. God forbid I hope you are not equating Kashmiris to Pakistanis now ? This will make the ‘Kill for Ram Lalla’ crowd real mad at you.

>

I condemn this. But your attempt at moral equivalence is absurd. On the other hand, has wiped of entire civlizations nothing to do with the west. Remember the Bahais and the Zorastrians?.

A Bahai friend of mine told me how his aunt was imprisoned by the Mullahs. Her child was forced to hold a stick dipped in Dog Excreta when he went to visit her. This is a pattern, not random acts. Most of them have fled Iran. Ditto for the Hindus , Ahmediyas etc. etc.

Both instances of horrible crimes by hindus have their origin in crimes commited by other communities (1984- 2002). I do know, however that Indira was partly responsible for punjab. I condem Modi - he was oppurtunist and he should probably be tried.

Their crimes go far beyond not allowing others to enter mecca.

And did you know that Graham Staines was into conversion?. He repeatedly attempted to con innocent tribals. Do you condemn this?. Arun Shourie writes of social tensions arising as a result of this. I am only foloowing the “root cause” philosophy of leftists.

I never sympathize with scroundrels like advani(ayodhya) or modi (godhra).

But to let go, the venal acts of missionaries, the dirty nature of the shariat which is almost fascistic and compare them to hinduism is absurd,

Lastly, the slaughter perpetrated by Muslims and Christians is probably more than a HUNDRED MILLION over the ages and TENS OF MILLIONS after 1950. How many millions have hindus killed.? Pakistan alone slaugtered 3 MILLION in bangladesh and SEVERAL MILLION in Afghanistan. This is not to mention Kashmir and Punjab of which they are partly responsible (Remaining responsibility is on us for having rigged elections and supporting bhindranwale).

I repeat . Count the number of millions slaughtered in the name of other religions and compare them to hindusim. By no yardstick, can it be remotely
compared.

It is vastly more tolerant and has STATISTICALLY caused far less trouble.

dilip D Souza,

Please see my earlier post

K

No religion has a monopoly on absurd intolerance. No religion has a monopoly on virtue.

YES. ABSURD INTOLERANCE in OTHER RELIGIONS HAS STATISTICALY SLAUGHTERED MORE THAN A HUNDRED MILLION OVER THE AGES.

HOW many milllions have the hindus slaughtered?.
Even if you blame sri lanka entirely on us (right) and kashmir and punjab partly on us, you will see hinduism is INFINITELY MORE TOLERANT.

Someone said there is no freedom struggle in POK. Here is what I found.

http://varnam.org/blog/archives/2004/09/no_terrorism_in.html

Of course there is a freedom struggle in POK. JK’s post says it all.

Al Mujahid’s claim to the contrary was absurd and naive, to say the least. I decided not to post a reply to that comment becuase it would’ve led the flow of comments off-topic. I have decided to make a post about it on my blog.

Salam alekum cyberwarriorji,

You have in all your naive wisdom

Wow.

failed to cite me a single incident of ‘massacres’ of NATIONALISTIC Indian Muslims by the ‘Pakis’

You mean if Poonch’s Muslims are telling on the activities of jihad killers to Indian security forces and getting killed by the jihadis on account of it, that is not an instance of killing of nationalistic Indian Muslims but of nationalistic Kashmiri Muslims?

Kindly start making sense cyberji.

They are fighting a war to get rid of India’s control

I’m rolling my eyes in woderment. I mean, it’s not as if I am not used to hearing that line; plenty of Pakis have made the same claim to me in egroup discussions; but this is truly the first time I have heard it from an Indian non-Muslim who comes from a Muslim family.

WHO is fighting a “WAR” to get rid of India’s control!? How is the “WAR” being fought: by ethnically cleansing Hindus, for example, and then topping it by killing Shia/Gujjar kids and women as well?

Have you in your naive wisdom accepted Musharraf’s claim that these jihadi killers are “freedom-fighters”; rolled it about your tongue; relished chewing it; and then swallowed it hook, line and sinker!?

God forbid I hope you are not equating Kashmiris to Pakistanis now ?

You seem to me doing that, actually, warriorji. I’ve always thought that these repulsive jihadi killers who kill women and children are intruders from across the LoC, but you’re telling me they are actually “Kashmiris”.

Cheers,
RR

I decided not to post a reply to that comment becuase it would’ve led the flow of comments off-topic

That is a mistake. You must, whenever opportunity presents itself, educate people like Mujahid. You owe it to them.

Rgds,
Raghu

Sameer,
You stated that I asserted that there’s no freedom struggle in POK. Where exactly did I say that ?
This is what I stated to RR” You have a lot in common with your brethrens in Pakistan whom you love to loathe who believe that the Kashmiris living in Pakistan controlled Kashmir (POK) are nationalistic Pakistanis”
So lets see. I pointed out to RR that his belief that Kashmiris are nationalistic about India is analogous to the fallacious belief of Pakistanis that Kashmiris living in POK are nationalistic about Pakistan.
From this you extrapolated that I was saying that theres no freedom struggle in POK.
With such leaps of logic, may I suggest the Long Jump in Beijing Olympics’08
Mr RR, salivating from the sidelines on your inane retort stated ” when an opportunity presents itself, educate people like Mujahid”
I would imagine that he agrees with your interpretation on my comment about POK.

Allahu Akbar cyberwarriorji,

You stated that I asserted that there’s no freedom struggle in POK. Where exactly did I say that ?

Go ahead and interpret the following statement in as many ways as you can. I hope you will make it as entertaining as possible.

last I checked no one was asking for independence in parts of Kashmir controlled by Pakistan.

Cheers,
RR

And that so called ‘independence’ movement is comparable to the one in parts of Kashmir controlled by India ?
Thats news to me !

Yo Mujahid, i am so impressed by your brave name!!!NOT. Well, the Palestinians, if they find themselves in a bad situation, have nobody to blame but themselves. By attempting to destroy Israel, and by refusing to stop acts of terrorism, they have brought all the trouble they have now upon themselves. So, they may bitch and whine as much as they want, Palis, are not gonna get anywhere unless they renounce terrorism. And as far as other muslims elsewhere casuing trouble, be it in Iraq, or chechnya, or Kashmir or Gujrat, we muslims are responsible for the animosity we face in allnon-muslim communities all over the world.
Muslims all over the world can try to portray themselves as the victims of christians or hindus or russian communists or whatever imaginary enemy they can dream up. But the bottom line is this - unless muslims learn to behave, and co-exist with other non-muslim cultures, instead of trying to attack them, muslims will never be treated as equals or with respect and without suspicion and animosity by non-muslims.
Any flame away or whatever, dudes, I dont really care what you apologists for terrorists have to say.

I am not a Muslim. I dont follow Islam. I do however come from an Indian Muslim family. I am sure for your ‘Brothers in Hinduvta’ that would be enough to kill me if I was unfortunate enough to be in India during one of its state sponsored mini-pogroms of Indian minorities.

Jesus, dude, snap out of that sense of victimhood. Nobody’s going to kill you for being Muslim, or being born a Muslim .. the chances that you will be tend to zero. I sincerely hope that was just dumb rhetoric … anyway, get the fuck away from the computer and get a god-damned life.

Oh my… I never checked back to read your ( Shanti ) response, but I expected it. Yes, I totally agree with you, my comment was a bit hysterical, but I won’t deny knowing that you linked to Fox News coincidentally makes me feel better… Oh, and I’ve argued with you in the past, remember? And I think we came to a very fair conclusion, so don’t compare me to anyone else… I AM UNIQUE!!! LOVE YA!!!

Seyd, how can I ever forget the argument we had over illegal, oops, undocuments immigrants? :tongue3: Of course, you are unique and luurve you too - did you get a new yard sign yet? You should, just to show you won’t be bullied.