Why do you assume that love and intimacy by definition cannot be extended to more than one person?

And why is it that the very urge that made a man(or a woman) get into their relationship becomes what is called “infidelity”?

Does marriage or a serious relationship mean that the person should give up all other passions that in part defined their personality?

Yor argument suffers on many points Shanti.

A man should assume/think that his wife is the most beautiful/attractive woman in the world?

Just so because watching porn together or with mutual consent to spice-up sex life is OK, does it make similar activities like wife-swapping and swinging OK?

Are marriages only made for sex?

Shanti, sex is overrated. It’s equivalent to finishing your monring chores.

Nilu, it is accepted that when you are married you are in general in a monogamous relationship committed to one person. This is not a discussion of hypothetical open-marriages or relationships.

Amol, first of all no man has to think his wife is the most attractive person on earth - my husband definitely doesn’t think so. It also doesn’t mean he will actively seek out women more attractive than me to ogle at them. If he sees an attractive person on a show or movie he happens to be watching or on the road and he thinks she is goodlooking, there is nothing wrong with that.

Secondly, a couple who are watching porn togehter are still keeping things between themselves and within the four walls of their house. We are not discussing things when people decide to bring others into their lives - it might then become a case of mutual infidelity.

As for the third, marriages are not made for sex but sex should be limited to within the marriage was my point.

Most of the animals are polygamous by nature. So it is not surprising for human beings to have fantasies about other sex whether married or not. Sex within conjugal partners is a religious and cultural behavior which is followed in civilized countries (with exception -tribal society etc).

Its legitimate for wives (& husbands vice versa) to claim that sex should be limited within the marriage according to culture. But sexual fantasies are people’s very personal thoughts, which may not be shared with conjugal partners even nobody. If we respect a person’s solitude then we should live him/her alone sometimes. If somebody notifying his/her partner have some solitude of sexual fantasies (with or without porn) other than the conjugal partner I see no mental infidelity in it.

Shanti, you have a point on the person’s intentions when he actively seeks out porn ignoring his wife. In a conjugal relationship sex should not only be the important tool of pleasure rather than a reciprocal affection. When this happens then the person can turn to a maniac soon and he will not be satisfied with any one women.

I think this is just too personal …. every1 has different views. U may judge ur husband by his actions but u really have no right to judge every man on the basis of his porn watching habits.

I agree, Rezwan - fantasies are something one doesn’t have much control over. What happens in your mind happens in your mind.

It is accepted

Why, Where, When?…….Your definitions of what is “accepted” does not hold for others’, which might include your husband.

This is not a discussion of hypothetical open-marriages or relationships.

Is there a difference?

Exactly, my point.

If sex/making love is to be confined within a marriage; it’s perfectly OK for an individual to subject himself/herself to porn in his/her confinement. The question of “mental infidelity” doesn’t arise :).

Nilu, I can only comment on the traditional marriage structure - I don’t get the open marriage-relationship thing, so I will not talk about it.

Amol, taking your analogy further, if one spouse only stuck to masturbation and never had sex with the other, they are still confining it to themselves - is that acceptable?

Your definitions of what is “accepted” does not hold for others

Which doesn’t mean that there is no such thing as a ‘rule’, and another called ‘exception’.

Shanti,

What about masturbation? Does a man have to think only about his wife while performing that particular act? Is he not supposed to masturbate at all? What if a man is apart from his wife (like in, say, the armed forces) - is looking at a Playboy ok in that situation? If it is, then isn’t that a case of situational ethics?

I don’t mean to attack your position - of course, you and your husband decide what is appropriate in your relationship. My own view is that as long as the porn viewing happens with the knowledge and consent of the spouse, then there is no problem….

My own view is that as long as the porn viewing happens with the knowledge and consent of the spouse, then there is no problem….

I think that is the key, Girish. That is definitely cool with me.

Shanti, I told you in my email that I disagreed with you. I’ll post a longer blog entry if I can, but let me just say that most psychologists agree that sexual fantasies are a healthy thing.

MadMan, do you mean to say that you have got to watch porn to have fantasies?

Different strokes for different folks. Having Salma Hayek in your mind being different from having Jenna Jameson is pretty much the same thing. :)

Er, choked on the sentence structure because I edited myself mid-way.

Read:
“Having Salma Hayek in your mind and having Jenna Jameson is pretty much the same thing.”

Shanti, you put words in my mouth in the last argument. Besides that, I think it’s perfectly alright if a partner is in the mood and the other one has a headache. It’a alright if your partner puts a “curfew” for a long time. If that’s what marriage brings you, deal with it.

The essence of what I am trying to say here is masturbation or watching porn affects the person who is subjecting himself/herself to it. He/she isnt really breaking the “marital contract”.

You can’t really compare it with sex between married couples. As you rightly put, the feeling is mutual.

I still don’t get how you equate watching a film with infidelity. Perhaps all you want to say is men should have better taste?

I totally disagree with you. Having your husband watch porn alone is certainly distasteful but it is not infidelity by any standards, mental or otherwise.

Being married does not make you any different than being single as far as human tendencies and thinking is concerned. So why is it ok for singles and not for married people? (PS women watch porn too).

If one likes lemon juice as it is, great; but if one needs to add sugar or salt, what is wrong with it?

Whirlwings, when you are single you are only responsible to yourself and not to anyone else. When married or committed, you are obligated to take your partner’s sensitivities into concern if you want to maintain your relationship.

Oh, and whatever I said applies to women too - I will not discriminate between the sexes :)

If you keep nagging your spouse that you don’t like him or her watching porn, it is going to do your relationship more harm than good since he or she will simply do it when you are not around.

It is better to be practical rather than idealistic in a long term arrangement such as marriage.

I think happy endings are more about understanding and accepting, rather than moralizing and being narrowmindedly utopian.

Whirlwings, I’d rather let my displeasure known to my husband about something I don’t like than be all “accepting” about it and end up resenting him. Instead of thinking of it as nagging, the least he can do is be sensitive to my feelings, which thankfully my husband is.

Firstly, nice site. You are a very talented and interesting person. Do keep writing.

WRT the topic, if we talk in terms of just sexuality, to be very realistic, a husband and wife just ‘settle’ for each other. Rarely is it the case that a man or a woman can’t conceive of sex with some person other than their spouse.

In such case, most men know that a certain so and so woman who is the centrespread for such and such magazine, who is ‘out of his league’, so to speak; yet, he would love to have sex with her given the chance.

I watch pornography, and have spoken about it with friends, and I have observed that each of my friends has a preferred porn star. There was actually a Slyvia Saint vs Azlea Antista debate once! So you see, it’s just a case of a man imagining ‘what if?’, and as such, an innocent thing. It’s like having a fantasy dream or something, I guess.

As long as one is not addicted to it and knows what reality is, I guess it’s totally cool. Addiction here I define as behavioural dysfunction caused by lack of something that the person enjoys.

Shanti, your principal argument of mental infidelity could be turned on its head and it would lead to the premise that porn actors are prostitutes, when they clearly are not, legally, socially and in every other sense.

Insider fact: The thrill of ogling lies in knowing the fact that the object being ogled at is out of one’s league. :tongue3:

Thanks, Chetan :)

I completely agree with you that each of us has someone who is so “out of our league” that it is fun to indulge in a fantasy or two or three - I think my problem is when something becomes a habit and a ritual to the point of exclusion of the other partner.

have god luck

Couples wants to enslave one another. Even mentally, that’s too much.

wow

Fantasy is great but action is not. A relationship exists to provide many things including stability. If another person is involved, trust and stability are out the window. If you are unfortunate enough to have doubts, check out cheatingspousepi and get the truth before you waste any more of your life on the wrong person than necessary. I wish had I done so eight months before I did.

I had trusted my boyfriend (common law) until one day I was searching in my history for a website that I couldn’t remember. I saw all of these porn websites covering my whole history. It took me a while to register that my boyfriend was doing this. I don’t know if it was because I didn’t want to believe it, or I truly believed he just wouldn’t do such a thing. I had told him before that I would watch porn with him but that would be the only way he could watch porn as well, strictrly to enhance our sex life. Well when it finally sunk in that he in fact did do this I was so hurt and angry that I called him at work. As soon as he said hello I asked him is he doing okay with his porn withdrawl? I of course made no sense I am sure since he thought there was no way of me finding out. When I told him I knew what he was doing he had no compassion what so ever. He came home and after fighting terribly and after expressing how hurt I was, he regreted evrything he did. He said he would never do it again. I know he was genuine. I later found out he would have kept doing it if I was fine with it or if I would have just never found out. Knowing this I would like people’s opinion on wheter or not I should continue being with him, or if I should give him the boot?

I totally understand you Haley, I just had passed a very similar experience. I found the other day when i went to my boyfriend’s place that he was in his room with the door shut so i entered and he got scared because he was watching porn … I didn’t what face to put or what to say i just wanted lo leave right away because i was not feeling good. It hurt me very much and even though he tells me that he is not going to do it again, how to trust him? he’s been doing it all the time and he says he didn’t know i wasn’t ok with that …. well so then why he got scared when i caught him i would have knocked the door would he have the website closed first so i don’t know :angry:

I am very turned off i can’t even see myself having anything with him right now. I don’t know what to do too should i break up with him? on the other hand i love him but i am afraid that all this is going to mess up the relationship.

I’m a 24 year old guy in a relationship for over a year now.

I was alone, in fantasy-land, for about 7 years. During that time I would go through week or month-long phases of watching a lot of porn, watching some, or not watching any at all. It lost it’s novelty more than once. When you satisfy the fantasy you move on to something else. Sure, you check out the extreme a few times but there is only so far you can go before it stops being legal and morally ok. Too much of anything is naturally rejected. As long as your morals are intact I do not see the harm in fantasizing or even checking out extreme (S&M, sick stuff) video. I’m not religious - I don’t restrict what I watch because I’m afraid it will consume me. If I haven’t seen it before I’m more interested. I believe in technology, communication, and knowledge based on science and fact. I believe in absorbing it ALL and making the right CHOICE. To me, being aware and experienced is more useful than hiding from the unknown.

Often, if I became horny I would look at porn for 5 mins (or less), masturbate, and be done with it. I don’t think I became unhealthily addicted, because I would lose interest in masturbation for up to a week at a time. I wouldn’t usually browse for long. Of course, there were also times when I would be extremely horny for a couple days.. but that seemed to curb as I got through puberty…

About a week and a half into my current relationship I cheated with my ex girlfriend of 3 months (my ex and I broke up just 2 weeks before we met). I guess I was getting off on the fantasy of having two women to sleep with and being a big ‘man’ or ‘slut’, just like the people I watched to help me fantasize. I also wanted to get my ‘pride’ back because I was pissed that the relationship didn’t work (she was a real piece of work..) For whatever reason, I needed to do it for myself and I do not regret it because I know it was valuable experience. Men need to do things for themselves to feel autonomous, strong, proud, and in control. Women are not the same. That’s not to say I would do it again. My action was hurtful, and still affects my current relationship to this day. My girlfriend, in her insecurity, became much more jealous and protective of me. To top it off, HER ex called her “fat”, never appreciated her, and basically made her his slave, adding to the insecurity. In fact, this guy was so full of himself and such an asshole that one time when he was watching porn he YELLED (to his friend) “she’s WAAY hotter than ____” and she heard it…

Needless to say she is uncomfortable with me looking at porn. Usually she will say it’s because of what I did but I know deep down it’s mostly because of what her EX did. She used to watch porn and have no problem with it with another ex who didn’t treat her this way.

She cannot stand the thought of me masturbating looking at other people having sex. She can barely stomach me looking at it without masturbating, but is trying to be ok with this as a compromise. She would much rather be in the room with me watching me, but I know that this too makes her uncomfortable. Due to her insecurity this will take a long time.

Sure, I could just stop watching porn forever (and I have cut back a hell of a lot for her), but that’s not what I want. I’m interested in sex, I’m interested in nudity, and I always will be. I like watching cheesy soft-porn on late-night TV. I like watching documentaries on sex. I like watching hardcore stuff of every type. I’ve already seen practically everything. I’ve been interested in sex from a young age, since before I accidentally watched the wrong videotape of my parents at 6, or when I found a Hustler magazine at age 8, or when I got hard when I saw people kissing on TV, or when I got a funny feeling playing on the monkey bars… (try it, it’s great:)) I was always VERY interested. I kissed and felt up/down my girlfriends at 12. I experimented with oral with my closest girlfriend at 12… I was confusing lust/love, I think, and I always chose/kidded myself it was love. I would write love letters and we would both get butterflies but at the same time I was doing it for the sex… I didn’t want to hurt women, I wanted to enjoy them and get them off. I wanted to be in love, but also learn about sex. I wasn’t really interested in intercourse until about 17, though, as I became more mature ‘down there’.

I, along with a lot of men, I’m sure, cannot give up everything that I am for someone else. Maybe when we are together for a few years I will start to grow this way but I am certainly not going to change because SHE, in her insecurity (which should be dealt with), decides it would be best for us. If someone needs you to change something you love before they will be with you then it could be argued that it’s not worth it. The person who is perfect for you is someone who will accept you without making your life a living hell no matter WHAT your choice is and how bad it hurts them (it’s called respect for others).

Indeed, the porn issue has brought a LOT of stress to my life, and the wisest choice seems to be to give up and let her go do the same (find someone more compatible). The reason I don’t do this, however, is that she loves me and I may just love her enough to be able to work through this with her. She is constantly trying to find ways to compromise and work on it but, of course, she can easily become emotional, overreact, and start making accusations at times when she is hurt or fears I am thinking of others. It is up to me to educate her that I love her and that the fantasy is just that, fantasy, and that I enjoy being with her MORE.

I’m 24 years old and I don’t think it’s unfair for me to be unsure about my future and whether or not I will marry this girl. Is it not worth holding on to what I enjoy (porn), even if it can be a little twisted at times? I do not believe in censorship. I believe in freedom and the freedom to choose. I can compromise to a degree (I may masturbate once but will have sex with her 2 or 3 times) but will not be controlled.

Women don’t understand that a man needs his CHOICE. I keep telling my girlfriend, “let me choose and I will choose you”. Yet she still cannot bring herself to “let me” masturbate to porn. Yes, I can not watch or masturbate FOR her for a time, but those fantasies and my desire to be independant and make my own choice will always creep back. I have found that the only person I can rely on in life is myself and I haven’t always succeeded in making myself happy and have some work do do on MYSELF before I will be able to fully move into this relationship. She needs to understand that if she lets me be MYSELF, and then define where I AM and where our RELATIONSHIP is and where I WANT IT to go we will be much more likely to be happy in the longer-term.

I feel like telling my girlfriend “I am going to masturbate when I want, to what I want, and I’m not going to talk about it with you”. If I’m honest with her and we talk about it she will be hurt and she will go off on a rant for a day at a time until she gets me back under her control, at least a little, by forcing me to sacrifice certain things. Of course, if I pull this card I will almost certainly lose her… I doubt if she can wrap her head around letting me be independent sometimes.

Maybe I’m not ready for a relationship at all, or not with this girl… I do not want to answer to ANYONE and I do not rely on people for support - it’s the male in me. I never really had the chance to become completely independent. What I need is a girlfriend who will support me in what I choose to do so that I can become more confident and independent in myself and feel comfortable with my choices in the past and present. I need a girlfriend who accepts the fact that we could break up and might not be happy. I need someone REALISTIC and down to earth - a scientist who knows that everything happens for a reason and therefore there is no reason to be upset. Things in this world can have any value we choose to apply to it - nothing is the same for everyone. I recommend finding someone with values similar to your own, especially in this area which is often a sensitive subject in relationships where people do not share a common view.

Mental infidelity is actually the precursor to physical infidelity - everything follows the mind. Thoughts are creating reality all the time, so mental fantasizing is actually a betrayal of your spouse unless it involves them. All matter and all physical reality spring from thought and consciousness. In fact it is more real than the illusion of matter and flesh.

david