perhaps as populations grow older, they will also grow wiser and figure out what to do.
assuming that there is an objective answer to the question, this seems like a good problem for Surowiecki’s crowds to solve!

What if your child ha some gruesome genetic defect, or Down’s syndrome - where the child may life well, or may be completely dependent on you for life? Are you willing to give up your whole life for him?

Vish

Vish, what if you had an accident that left you disabled for life? Would you want your caretaker to make the decision to kill you?

Again, a mother doesn’t have to give up her entire life for anybody. All I am asking for is some introspection and a little more information before anyone goes through an abortion. Maybe, just maybe a few will not go ahead with it. I think we glibly avoid discussing the true consequences of an abortion by framing the debate as a simple choice instead of figuring the life of the baby into the equation.

What about rape victims conceiving ?

The issue is very deep, but all told I still think it’s the woman’s choice. If not, then what you’re saying is that women who undergo an abortion should be tried for murder.

Yazad, thee are always exceptions to everything. I don’t want anyone to be tried for murder or anything to even be banned. I have spoken to a number of people who have had abortions and the truth is this - most women are given abortion as their only choice and the so-called abortion counselors never once let the women realize there are other options. They don’t refer to the baby as a baby but as a fetus. There is an attempt at dehumanizing the baby - no one even shows the women what the baby is like in an ultrasound.

I have a feeling a lot more women would rethink their options if abortion is presented as what it really is, killing of a child. I don’t want anybody to be forced into thinking that way. I just want women to make a truly informed decision. Most women I know who have had abortions and then went on to have babies suffer an incredible amount of guilt that is going to haunt them for life. They have paid a great price without ever realizing that.

When men start taking equal responsibility for contraception, when marital rape becomes a crime, when stupid religious leaders support the use of contraceptives, when a 100% reliable contraceptive is devised, when Indian women are less pressured to produce a son, when there is a workplace supportive of working mothers, when the unpaid work of bringing up children is seen as equally important ….THEN and only then will introspection by women make sense to me. As for women opting to have their uteruses taken out if they cant take responsibility, is that really practical considering most Indian women have no reproductive rights whatsoever? We’d be better off counselling the men to have vasectomies;the reality is that husbands, and their families, make the decisions in much of India. Though perhaps not in your case, Shanthi.

I am all in favour of informed decisions, but too much information will just be used to beat mothers up and make them feel guilty.Women have enough guilt as it is.

And yes, before anyone says it, I do have two very dearly loved children. And no, I have never had an abortion.

Cassandra, I agree with a lot of your points. Most of my rant really applies to the US and the developed countries. Women in most other countries have little or not freedom in most things. Tehir cases will definitely have to be handled differently.

Actually, women have a right to their ‘introspection’, regardless of situation. And abortion is not a fun experience. Take that statement for what you will….

I share your ambivalence Shanti - I don’t think any woman should be forced to have a child she is not prepared to give birth to, but it’s hard not to look at ultrasound pictures of fetuses and feel uncomfortable.

During my residency, we had to ‘gross’ in specimens that came in from the OR (to the pathology lab). Some of the specimens were fetal reductions - this is when a woman has a multiple pregnancy and then one or more of the fetuses are injected with saline. That way the mother only has to give birth to as many fetuses as she wishes. Sometimes it is protect a woman who might have a dangerous pregnancy, but sometimes it is because a woman has had fertility treatment and doesn’t feel she can have all the babies in a multiple pregnancy.

Clinton was onto to something: safe, legal, and rare. I dunno. Ambivalence. That’s my main emotion on this.

Actually, the fact that I have multiple sclerosis makes me uncomfortable with arguments about: well, do you want to have that baby if it will cause you too much trouble? I hope my parents don’t regret me, whatever the future may bring with my illness. Human life is precious.

MD, thanks for sharing so much of yourself with us. I am so proud of you that you chose to not let MS take over your life and fought back to become a doctor instead.

Like you said, I am really not for legislating abortion or anything for that matter - but I also feel a lot of women who undergo this are not truly aware of what they are about to do. All I want is for this to be something serious and not to be taken lightly or to be used as birth control. It is sad to reduce such an enormous issue to sloganeering.

Atanu Dey of Deesha had posted this image of a impoverished child a few months back (I don’t wish to hotlink this image off his server) and asked “what about the rights of this child.” Then, he was talking about the need to reduce population growth and discussing about people’s right to have offsprings infringing on the child’s right to have a decent childhood. This time, let us turn the situation around. We have a pregnant woman who would be unable to support the now-unborn child. She wants an abortion because her child will not have a decent chance to life. Would “murdering” the fetus be a bigger crime than having the child live life like in the image above?

Here is another article that provides a counterpoint to your argument. It is graphic to certain extent, and may make you squemish: http://www.arhp.org/bettyandlouise/

And finally, Shanti, read this account of possible side-effects of a legislation on abortions:
http://www.msmagazine.com/summer2004/womanandherdoctor.asp

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Let’s look at the other side of the story. Recently (October?) there was an article (I search but couldn’t find the link) about a lady who had triplets, but decided to abort two. The reason: because having three children would seriously hamper her lifestyle. This was an example of taking “it’s my body, and my choice” to a bizzare extreme.

Something from India: abortions when it is learnt that the baby will be a female.
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All these, and some from the ones you mentioned here, do leave a bad taste. However, if the argument is about legislating abortions, links in the first part above should serve as reminders that the issue is really complex, and needs to be tackled at various levels.

Does anyone here know of a study (if there has been one) about the number of abortions prior to Roe v Wade, in the few years after, and in the recent years. Other women, just like you, are also sensitive; the decision of abortion is (I don’t think) an easy one for any (rather, make that most) woman. As the women get empowered, as they learn about choices, as knowledge about conception and contraception grows, the number of abortions will decrease significantly. Anecdotal articles, like the WND or the MSMagazine are less meaningful than an analysis of the behavior of an entire region or country.

I guess I have rambled enough. I’ll leave you at this. Good night!

Niket, you do raise some good points. You can see from my post that I am extremely uncomfortable with the idea of any kind of legislation. I am really in favor of more information. I think we are into dehumanizing babies by calling them fetuses, so we can avoid facing what we are really doing. As long as we can make an honest and a fully informed choice, I say go for it.

It is interesting about Atanu Dey’s point of right of a child to have a decent existence to a parent’s right to have children. Taking it a little further, should we be like China and abort all poor people since there is a big possibility that their children might end up poor? Should we abort those with a probability of passing on genetic defects?

If Atanu’s point is that such parents should think twice or even thrice before having kids, I completely agree with it. Once the baby is in your womb though, it becomes a responsibility not a choice. I hope my rambling makes sense to you :)

Absolutely! In fact, my views are quite colinear with yours. But then, those are for me personally. If I were a woman, there is no way in hell I would abort my healthy fetus (or baby, call what you might). Notwithstanding my personal views, I try not to judge another woman, who “chooses” to get an abortion.

A couple of years back, we were having a discussion with a fellow grad student who had just gotten married. She was just begining 4th year of her PhD. While discussing abortion, she asked, that if having a baby (which, lets assume was conceived, in spite of using contraceptives) means I have to stop coming to the lab for 6-9 months, would that be fair? Fair to me, who has put in so much effort already? Fair to the baby, whose mommy is too busy finishing her PhD when she needs her the most? She finally said that she won’t do an abortion; but then would it be right to judge someone who does, as “immoral” or “inconsiderate”?

What if this wasn’t the case of a relatively well-off lady pursuing her PhD, but of someone who, with much difficulty, found a means to put food on the table. A number of times, it seems like a “choice” when there really is none.

What about the mother being a 17-year-old, who hasn’t yet completed her school, whose boyfriend refuses to take his share of responsibility, and who already has many things on her hands that she is juggling with.

You know, come to think of it, we are really lucky… that the issue of abortion is really an issue of “choice” vs “no choice”… for a number of people, there is really no choice, although it might seem that the woman is “choosing” to have an abortion.
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When I was a kid, there was an ad campaign started off in Borivli and Dadar stations in Mumbai. These people took pictures of “fetuses” —- which really had almost full human form with something resembling a head, and limbs etc —- that were discarded outside an abortion clinic. This was to raise awareness against female fetocide… to show that by the time the sex is determined, the fetus is already a living breathing baby inside the womb. Again in such cases, it is a matter of infringement of choice… choice of mother to have a female baby and not abort it.