Hi Shanti,

For years Britain sheltered Pakistani/Kashmiri terrorists as long as they are not acting against British interests. The funding for PoK heavily comes from Pakistanis living in Britain. All the requests from the Indian side fell on deaf years - even for simple cases like deporting Nadeem (of Nadeem Sharavan fame). They have even sheltered Algerian terrorists who were wanted by French police. The UK Foreign Office has used these people has a tool of weilding influence against target countries. While feeling deeply sorry for the dead/injured civilians, I can’t help but say some of the chickens have come to roost.

Err..B.Raman is a moron? B.Raman was/is one of the top honchoes of Indian intelligence agency RAW, so he sure knows what is he talking mam. It is still my belief that Indian intelligence folks have the wide spectrum of experience in dealing ANY kind of terrorist activities. Be it snowclad mountains of Kashmir, jungles of Assam/Nagaland, Sea coast of Bombay or the LTTE threat - they have seen it all. Diverse country diverse experience.

Be it Rajiv murder case or cricket match fixing or Bombay blasts - they have gotten to the bottom of it in no time.

And to piss on them is not right IMO.

L, you do bring up very true points, which I wish Mr. Raman would address. He instead devolves into the idiotic nonsense about Iraq and Koran abuse when there are important points to be made.

Ibish, just because someone has been working in the intelligence business doesn’t mean they are all-knowing. Instead of appealing from authority, I wish he and you would make cogent arguments and tell me where I am wrong with what I said above.

Hi Shanti,

May be as a ex-chief of RAW Shri Raman knows what he is talking. Remember how British/American media always treats bombings in India linking it with disgrunted Kashmir Muslims and alienated local Muslim population - apsyops. Guess he is playing a similar game.

Read more: http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/2005/07/fwd-different-strokes-for-different.html

L, sure - I can see where that is coming from too. Whether I agree with it or not, I can see your point. My point is that nowhere does Mr. Raman make the points you are making. Instead of actually making arguments that make sense, he just rehashes tired opinions that wouldn’t be out-of-place in a Praful Bidwai column. Think about it - if the name of the author were left out of the column, wouldn’t you believe this could be a Bidwai column?

An ex-intelligence chief might know a lot - that doesn’t necessarily make him any less of an idealogue. Ideology has blinded better people, hasn’t it?

I would like to say just one thing that whenever you write something in mass media, you must be aware of the consequeces.

True that the first lesson that Mr. Raman talks about in the article is kind of weak. I agree that prisoners should never be treated like the way they are treated by the US and also i do not believe that the US is doing something very great by invading oil rich iraq.

However what has it got to do with India treating the prisoners fairly and treating them with restraint? Has terrorism seized in India? I believe that we should do what is necessary for preventing terrorism. Not more than what is necessary or less than what is necessary.

The rest of the analysis by Mr. Raman is good and to the point.

Shanti:

I doubt if most of the readers here will understand where you’re coming from.

This almost seems like a rehash of the “liberal whiner right wing nut job” debate, where everyone other than the people committing the crimes are blamed. I made the same mistake, and a friend was quick to point out that my “unsubstantiated, party line, out-of-the-mouth-of-Karl-Rove-ian statement”, rather than blaming the real perpetrators, was taking the focus away from the real issue.

And I’ll tell this Raman dude this - India does not have the guts to do what the US does. We talk and talk and talk, but do very little. And now it’s gone out of hand, and beyond control. No one else other than we are to blame.

More importantly, he is quite non-pragmatic and makes statements without understanding the socio-economic or political climes of the world.

Honcho in RAW or not, he comes across as a moron.

In my opinion, counter terrorism (wtf, sic) is the best weapon against Islamofascism. Reminds me of Swordfish!

: grin :

The whole burning the Koran thing - I so totally agree, what absolute nonsense! It’s just a bunch of pieces of paper, how is that even coming close to torture? We spend too much time being politically correct, even to those that are a threat to our way of life.

Symbolism will be our downfall.

I see your point, Metlin - I do have the background of seeing the crap that was spewed out at DU/DKos/Indymedia et al, so I was partially responding to them in the post. Sometimes I need someone to point to me that Indians in India are coming form a place totally different from me.

Shanti,

I have to disagree with the general tenor of your post. The root cause of the bombing partially lies with the nutcases in the larger Islamic community, that’s true, but to ignore the other root causes is to be blind to reality. This war against terrorism cannot be won by means employed by Bush and Blair. I’m not asking them to appease the lunatics in the Muslim world, but they’ve done and continue to do enough to alienate the Muslim on the street. And until they turn around that feeling, this war will go on.

Salman’s Shirt
http://salmansshirt.blogspot.com

SS, the war on terrorism was started in itself as a retaliation of a terrorist act. Correlation is not the same as causation. I have a hard time believing that the increasingly radical islamists in the UK would not have caused something like this if there was no war on Iraq.

Shanti,

I’m assuming that you arent based in India, yes? When bombay was the victim of serial bombing in 1992, we knew dawood ibrahim was behind it, was it possible to invade Pakistan cos he was hiding there. It is a known fact that he is behind most crime in India and now is happlily alive in Pakistan, he is placed on a most wanted list by the US itself, why isnt anyone sending armies in behind him.

Metlin in his very illuminating post has pointed out that , and i quote “India does not have the guts to do what the US does.”… i beg to differ…india dosent have the money or resources to “talk the talk” right now. We do not have unlimited defence budgets and war mongering president.

It’s very easy to sit there and critisize the RAW and other Indian Intelligence Agencies, but what you do not get is that they are doing a job that is nearly 5 times more difficult than what the CIA has to do, but with 1/10th the funds!! It’s very easy to talk about what you know very little about, but before you and people like Metlin make statements like the US is talking the talk, understand where people like Osama bin Laden got their power and knowledge from. Who created him, who gave him all that fantastic firepower and fantastic amounts of money. Yep, thats what i call walking the walk!!!

Shanti, what you are saying is correct for Raman’s article in question. However, if you read another one on Rediff by the same guy, it make sense.

http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/jul/13raman.htm

Hmmm, the US does not always necessarily go to war. They work by other means, too - sanctions, for one. The point is, they do something pro-active, we do not. Rather than sit and talk, they take action, any kind of action.

The point is, you need to be willing to do what it takes to protect your interests. India simply does not. In fact, we have a terrible disease - one of apathy.

You can rant all you want and give any number of pitiable reasons, but the bottom line remains that the funds that could have been utilized for the betterment of the country, the economy, the infrastructure and the military has been going to the wrong places.

We had any number of opportunities to set things right - Sardar Patel wanted to have a military presence in Kashmir and take care of the situation then and there, but we did not. We annexed Pakistani cities and large areas of Pakistan during the war, but we did nothing.

Even economically, we could have gone the way of capitalism right at the beginning, but we did not. Tata and Birla offered to privatize everything, but we wanted a socialist economy.

Today, we’ve ridiculous riots and corrupt politicians, and we still do nothing. Despite our growth, our per capita GDP is ranked 120. We’re one of the poorest and absolutely no semblance of an infrastructure.

Yet, what are we even doing to set it right? Nothing. Look at the roads today - Chennai and Bangalore have pitiable roads for cities that boast to be the IT hubs of the country. Are we taking a strong stance against terrorism? Nope.

Look at American Television to see how much their military and armed forces are advertised. And look at their history to learn how well they are used. A lot of the brightest and the best go serve in the military here - of their own accord, and out of pride of being a part of something greater. But nope, not so in India - we hardly even pay comparative wages. Hell, we do not even pay comparative wages in any government run arm of the government (unless you are a politician ofcourse).

Pay well, recruit well and you will have a war machine that will protect your interests. Even today, all it takes is for us to better the army and march into the border and take a firm stance. The world will be on our side.

But instead, we sit and whine and offer reasons. And guess what? I hope we lose Kashmir, just so that we’re taught a nasty lesson for our apathy.

I fully agree with Metlin and Shanti. Spinelessness has been the bane of India

More feed for your “morons”.
http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/jul/19bidwai.htm

I can’t agree with you here Shanti.

The United States of America is the largest terrorist organization in the world, bar none.

Go do some research on the number of innocent civilians that have died in secret wars like Laos, Cambodia and Nicaragua. Fewer Jews died in Hitler’s concentration camps than the number who have died from American hegemony.

How do you think that the US stays on top? Through legitimate means? Do you really think it has achieved the rank of the largest economy in the world honestly? Of course not. The Americans have been looting Latin and Central America as well as the Caribbean since the 1830’s. I suggest you do some research on how many times American troops have landed in that part of the world to ‘free’ the people including the time that they went in to ‘free’ Panama from Colombia (Panama was a part of a impoverished large country called Colombia back then) when the Colombians didn’t like American terms for the Panama canal. And the newly ‘freed’ Panamanians freely gave away a stretch of land that became the Panama Canal to the Americans. How nice.

If American troops have landed in Latin America (Monroe Doctrine) dozens of times BEFORE THEY BECAME A WORLD POWER, what do you think they would do now?

Need I mention the use of nuclear weapons, invasion of Vietnam etc.? America has forever interfered in the affairs of foriegn states to attain its ‘interests’.

Metlin, what do you know about the capitalist system? Are you aware that it is a system devoted to the making of profit at any and at all costs? Meaning that everything else, including human life and the environment take second priority.

Why did America condemn the world to certain environmental damage by refusing to sign the Kyoto agreement? For short term profit. Why is America still spending Cold-war era budgets on the military now that no real power can challenge them? Hint: A certain military-industry complex who is sleeping with the government leaders and vice-versa.

Are you aware that America tried to have Hugo Chavez overthrown in Venezuela in 2002? I don’t know about you, but I don’t think Chavez or Venezuela has heavy assault forces marshalled somewhere, ready to invade the USA. America violated Venezuela sovereignity and attempted to terminate its president because he did not bend to American wishes. America has undertaken actions of such evil that not even the Al Qaida has committed them. And India is not immune to this; sooner or later we will be next.

Have you noticed that not one single country in Latin America or Africa has prospered under policies dictated to it by the American proxies, the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank? America and other Western countries have much greater influence according to the voting rules in these “Non-governmental organizations” than India or China or any other developing country.

Capitalist propaganda is being pushed America because it benefits itself. It takes wealth from the poor countries and that’s the way it works. And wrecks the environment at the same time.

Socialism/Communism is the direct opposite, destroying motivation and resulting in waste and lack of efficiency. What is needed some middle path. Moderation is a highly underestimated and forgotten virtue.

People, animals, the environment need to be the priority. Not profit. The modern world system needs change, from financial markets to the patterns of flow of capital, to the extensive use of neo-colonialism by America (and other countries).

The most potent country with the most powerful potential for greatness immediately becomes America’s enemies. China is the fastest growing economy right now and unlike Britain or France or Germany, it has a sufficiently large enough population to continue economic growth nearly infinitely. In short, China is soon going to have a larger economy than American (and thus, military) within 75-150 years. So American hegemony is going to be overtaken and America is desperately trying to prevent this at any costs. Hence, its attempts to paint it as an enemy and use India as a a take-off point for attacks.

I suggest you remember that should India actually overtake China in terms of growth, which is a definite possibility considering that China’s aging population will begin to retire starting 2010 and the fact that their growth cannot indefinitely stay at 10% per annum, we will be the next to painted as enemies. American hegemony will not allow otherwise and to think to the contrary would be foolish in the extreme.

Whether we like it or not, America is our enemy, it will be India’s enemy in the future. Jehadis/Al Qaida, are a threat to be sure, but they don’t pose as great a threat as American greed, arrogance and lust for power will to India in the future.

Make sure your priorities are correct, because the Islamic terrorists are only a minor threat compared to the Americans (who are impugning on our sovereignity right now as Manmohan Singh has been so kind as to allow them to put their customs officials on Indian soil and they are now pushing for the placing of FBI officials in India in order to monitor terrorists, when he visted the US a couple of weeks back. http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/jul/18mitra.htm). The Americans have never violated our sovereignity like this before because our politicians were never that idiotic. This does not bode well for India…

Varghese:
Sittiing heere in China, I wonder how the China of today politically and geographically can exist the same for ever. Large changes in the landscape of China you can expect in the next decade or so. Once the changes happen, you will be seeing is different China politically. Will this new China be a threat ? We need to wait and see what form it takes.

About our lovely country India, our enemies are not Americans or Pakistanis or jehadi. Our enemies are we ourselves. We are a corrupt and lazy bunch of people. We idiots elect no good goons to rule our country. We need to kick our arse and clean up our act.

All makes me wonder what we are doing on blogs are “talk talk and talk”. How many of us are people have really gone out and done some really good work?!